Alternative opinions of ABA?

[kpjigsaw]

We are strongly considering starting an ABA programme for our son, and it's been very useful looking at some of the posts on here about it. It seems that a lot if parents have found it to be very valuable which is why we are considering it. I was just wondering whether anyone has had a bad experience of it - I don't mean an individual poor tutor or whatever, I mean does anyone feel it didn't work or was even detrimental? Just trying to get a balanced view as it seems all the negative opinions are held by the 'professionals' rather than people who have actually experienced it.

Any thoughts?

I 'think' what Justa is saying is that free-flowing but carefully considered opportunities set up to address intuitive or perceived needs can be more than enough for some children to thrive, and possibly taking all things into consideration (i.e. time, money, the whole concept of a 'programme' and flexibility) better than ABA..

Hehe, well religion is about as far from ABA as you get, because it is not a set of beliefs but a science and science by nature is both brutally cynical and parsimonious.

(This incidentally leads me into long and interesting chats with the very nice people who bring The Watchtower to my door on occasion.)

No room for unfounded emotion or sentiment.
It's not enough to believe something works.
It has to be shown to work.

The mantra of the behaviour analyst is 'Show me the data'

That incidentally is the underpinnig of evidence based practice, of the sort that all therapies and pedagogical approaches are being exhorted to embrace.
If they are not able to show that what they do ^works6, then quite simply there is no place for them in a publically funded service.

We have to spend tax payers' money wiselly on things that do what they say they do.

There's a very simple way of finding out whether whatever you choose for your child works (be it equine therapy, rebound therapy, holding therapy, drama therapy, ABSA based education, reiki)

You ask the practitioner how they measure where your child is before starting the therapy and where they are after having done the therapy. If they can give you some defnite answers, you're onto a winner.If not......tread carefully, especially if it involves parting with substantial sums of money.

Right. Let's try another go at reconciling the opposite ends of the ABA spectrum. We all want our asd dc to do as well as possible. We'd like to retain our sanity, mortgage/rent payments and family life meanwhile.

The vast majority of posters seem to believe that it's important to know a child's baseline, decide what's most important to develop, decide how to motivate them, work out mentally what the next necessary little step is and clearly and consistently take action to ensure they learn it. And if that doesn't happen, we think again and modify our next actions.

The main difference as I see it is that some posters feel able to get good results informally and instinctively, without specialist input. While others feel that this is best done formally, with expert help. The most interesting thing for me is that the majority of posters are convinced their own approach has helped their child. Which presumably is why they selected and stuck with it.

After all that, I'll say I'm theoretically convinced of the behaviouralist approach to learning. And there are very few parents who aren't applying it to some degree. We have ended up almost ABA-ing, ie at least 30 hours a week of reinforced life skills teaching, although integrated into daily life and without written records or outside help.

But... in my opinion, it is very difficult even for an exceptional tutor to break down, teach and re-combine some complex social behaviours. And a naturalistic approach with other teaching techniques can sometimes be more efficient. So shall we all have an un-mumsnetty group hug?

It is true that teaching less easily definable and measurable behaviours (by which is meant physically observable actions) particularly those which involve more complex social skills and language provides a huge challenge.

I think however, this is the next phase of ABA. Firstly, it is moving on from being only known as hugely expensive and intrusive home based programmes (I take my hat off to people who can cope with that level of intrusion. I would also like to point out that I am not keen on home based programmes.I know why parents go for them, but to be truly effective, any therapy has to be carried out and used in real life situations.) Public sector bods are learning that it can be incororated into both special and m/s schools with no huge interruptions or massive costs.

Secondly, it is evolving to be used with kids who have pretty good language and to further refine that. This is where s/lts can really play a big role, knowing what they do about communication and its different facets.

As Star pointed out, it is used in a lot of different ways. New Zealand very big on its use with heavy plant safety (that piques my dh's interests, being a farm boy at heart). I am a bit of an exercise nut so I am really interested in its application on fitness and healthy eating programmes which is a big area.

'It is true that teaching less easily definable and measurable behaviours (by which is meant physically observable actions) particularly those which involve more complex social skills and language provides a huge challenge'

Yes, but it still possible to identify deficit areas, plan some intervention and then measure whether it is working.

I think one of the appeals of ABA, if I'm honest, is that professionals can't say 'ds has made good progress and that is my professional opinion.' Of course this is great if it is the parent's opinion too, but very often it isn't and causes huge amounts of frustraion and anxiety that data can simply take away, even if the parent is wrong.

Indeed. It's objective and not subjective.

And now I really must get on with the day job.....
Sun is out, daisies are dancing on the lawn and another exciing week beckons.

OP hasn't replied at all though. Was she a troll?

Reckon she's doing some coursework on the subject and is a lazy mare!

OP, go onto Apergers and ASD Online and they'll all tell you how awful ABA is.

There have been several forthright alternative opinions. Just not from anyone that's tried it. And not from many people who have a lower functioning child. Thus it comes across as uninformed prejudice. Ironically if ABA were a religion it would probably be afforded more protection from such prejudice.

There may well be secret legions of people who have tried ABA and hated it, but I happen to know of several real life, concrete long term posters who now no longer feel this site is for them. Not if their parenting skills can be challenged on an SN board of all places, by people who haven't walked in their shoes. I never thought I'd see the day.

FWIW I don't think anyone has ever said that ABA is the only way to successfully treat an ASD child.

But I also think that trying to change peoples' entrenched views for and against it is increasingly seeming utterly futile.

I think there have been loads of alternative viewpoints expressed on here, but all of them uninformed. Some on here seem to have swallowed whole the establishment-driven prejudices against ABA. I think also that there have been some very tactless posts, given the severity of disabilities some mums on here (incuding me) are dealing with. If my son just needed to sing a couple of tunes from Annie each week to be right as rain, I'd be on my knees giving humble thanks - not coming on here upsetting those who have found something that works for their more severely-affected children.

zzzz - we cross-posted. Fedup's reference to "parenting skills" was, I think, because a previous poster said in a nauseatingly self-satisfied way that she just used loving and instinctive parenting to get round her son's disabilities. Again, if that were all it took to sort my boy's severe problems out, I'd be so busy thanking my lucky stars that I would not have time to come posting on mumsnet. Her implication seemed to be that those of us inviting ABA tutors into our house just weren't being instinctive enough about our parenting. Horseshit is the word that springs to mind.

Anyone has the right to express an opinion, and I have absolutely no problem with that. If you or anyone else chooses not to do ABA it's no skin off my nose! Makes no difference to my life or my son's life at all.

But what I do have a problem with is people repeatedly ignoring the fact that consistent or extraordinary parenting is not necessarily a subsitute for intensive help such as ABA. It might well be the case for higher functioning children but my son is in a completely different ball park. The skills we are aiming for might be sneered at by some but it's all to do with how far your particular child has come from where they were. I can wholly appreciate that if DS was in mainstream, with a normal IQ then I may think learning to brush one's own teeth or similar was a joke, but it's all relative. Such gains are huge for us, and very hard won. He's never going to take exams or live independently, but his quality of life is as important as anyone else's.

And to imply that I just didn't get lucky with my skillset is offensive, plain and simple. Sorry, but it is. I wish I had the luxury of being able to view other ASD mums in that way.

Plus I still don't get how you can criticise something you haven't got experience of. I just don't. How can you possibly have any point of comparison, unlike some of us whose children have been failed spectacularly by TEACCH/ portage et al

So I think it is disingenuous to try and sway someone against ABA when your knowledge of it is all theoretical. You can say that you wouldn't have wanted the intrusion etc etc, fair enough, but you categorically cannot say that it is little different to instinctive parenting. Especially if you don't know the severity of ASD someone is dealing with.

Glad you find other people's misfortune a source of mirth, zzzz - all credit to you.

well, what an enlightenting thread this has been.

we started out form a position of judging whether it is worth it to spend a lot of money to (possibly minimally) increase a disabled child;s skills; took a brief meander through accusation of helicopter parenting, and statements of "well, my parenting is so instinctive and superior in any possible way that I do not need outside hel, however if parents feel they need help in dping what comes naturally ot me then yes, they shoudl ask for theat help and instruction"; ended up somewhere else entirely, with smug justification for not using ABA being held up as an example of why ABA is not suitable for every child (the 2 positions are not the same).

and along the way, we have had insinuation of strident bullying and forcing of ABA on every poster who asks for help. along with parodies of conversations which, by admissions of posters on this very thread, have actually been very helpful in highliting the difference between "standard" parenting techniques using reward and reinforcement, and the porper behavioural mwthod of using it - very different, if people would only stop to think about it.

we have had many forceful opinions - all of them coming form people who have never tried ABA, nd seem to (wilfully?) misunderstand just about every explanantion that is given.

the only change of definition I have seen on the thread, btw, for whoevver said the definition of ABA keeps changing, is of anti-ABAers who pop up with a "oh, yes, all very well, but actually I am against it because pf X", and then a few hours later "yes, i understand that, but you have to consider Y"

what a lovely place the SN boards are turning into - absolutely topnotch, guy, do carry on.

This is awful!

OK, I repeat: I am sure ABA works and it's great that it has been of so much benefit to so many children.

But I choose not to do it. Here's why:

My child is not at the severe end of the spectrum, so he is able to be in mainstream school, and he has a normal IQ. I could not in all conscience ask the LA to fund an ABA programme, because I know there are quite a few kids in DS1's school who have more difficulties (and less support) than he does.

I could not do an ABA home programme. This is probably because I am not motivated enough to do it, because I work, and have another child, and have other commitments too, and because I can't see that the benefits would outweigh the costs.

We do as everyone does nowadays incorporate many of the insights of behavioural psychology into our parenting. But on a very fundamental level I do not agree with behaviourism. I do not agree that we are nothing but our behaviour, that there is no core of human-ness, internal being, spirit or soul or whatever you might call it, that makes moral choices, and I do not agree that human relationships are simply the accretions of actions, rather than emotionally dynamic bonds.

Now, I am not saying that you have to buy into this to do ABA, or that if you did ABA you would thus be agreeing with the principles of behaviourism.

I am saying, however, that I do not agree with those principles, and that this underpins my choice not to follow an ABA programme.

And as for the 'behavioural things' we do like praising the good, and breaking things down into small steps, some of them are common sense, aren't they? As the great Eddie Cochran put it:

Step one: you find a girl to love
Step two: she falls in love with you
Step three: you kiss and hold her tightly
That's three steps to heaven!

Niminy Do you find principles behind ABA mainulative?

Personally, I find that the emotional/personality rides like a wave on top of the behaviour rather than being stamped out.

I don't find behaviouralism to be the way you describe. One of the reasons why so many people find it difficult at first is that they don't appreciate that what THEY feel should be reinforcing and rewarding for the child is not at all what the child finds reinforcing. They are always in control of their interests and the behaviourist approach simply finds ways of tagging on skills to these, just as all schools aspire to do this too. It doesn't change the instrinsic 'person' except for the fact that they are much able to be led to other opportunities that, should THEY choose, could add dimensions to their personality.

Okay, so there's some high emotions but please be very VERY careful about personal insults and criticism. It's a debate worth having but not if everyone is going to storm off fuming.

Just trying to get a balanced view as it seems all the negative opinions are held by the 'professionals' rather than people who have actually experienced it

It might be worth pointing out that the OP was interested in opinions from people who have experienced ABA.

Zzzz when I said that ABA isn't necessarily a subsitute for consistent parenting I was being respectful enough to acknowledge that my knowledge of the autistic spectrum is not total. I don't take my child and assume that all ASD kids are like him. But this is what a lot of other posters seem to be doing, forgetting that autism is a spectrum and that if they have children at the higher end of that spectrum than by definition there are a hell of a lot of kids beneath them in cognitive ability.

This includes children who can't talk, have no self-help skills and understand close to nothing that is said to them. They can't interact and have no ability to imitate or play.

How can any parent instinctively know how to help a child with these kind of severe difficulties? Unless they happen to have been specifically trained. Almost none of us would have 'the right skill set'.

It is very strange to me that the only people who have come forward to criticise ABA are those that a) have higher functioning children and b) have never done it themselves. Yet they feel as valid in their opinions as people with lower functioning children who have tried ABA (and many other therapies). How can this be?

And if people doing ABA feel the need to justify their choice, as was said upthread, then surely the same could be said of those who have chosen not to do it. Thus this whole argument is pretty much pointless