Alternative opinions of ABA?

[kpjigsaw]

We are strongly considering starting an ABA programme for our son, and it's been very useful looking at some of the posts on here about it. It seems that a lot if parents have found it to be very valuable which is why we are considering it. I was just wondering whether anyone has had a bad experience of it - I don't mean an individual poor tutor or whatever, I mean does anyone feel it didn't work or was even detrimental? Just trying to get a balanced view as it seems all the negative opinions are held by the 'professionals' rather than people who have actually experienced it.

Any thoughts?

Also I have noticed an article in Dolfrog's very useful link that is titled "None of the As in ABA stands for autism", so that could be an article worth printing out.

Thanks Sickof. Scuse ignorance but how will I get your PM? Will it go to my registered email address?

Your post also seems to confirm something that I've picked up from some of the other ABA threads which is that I'm likely to have to private fund ABA in order to get some base data to make a case for it to LEA - correct? Would 3 months give me enough data to start to make a case do you think? Still only at start of ABA journey but anticipating a fight

If 'other' methoids work, that is because, by definition they adhere to the principles of ABA so would entail

-clear instruction
-task analysis (ie breaking tasks down into tiny steps)
-reinforcement (ie what makes this kid feel that he wants to do something and enjoys doing it)
-data collection and analysis

I work with a lovely music therapist who thinks she hates ABA. I point out to her that her very effective intervention is an ABA approach and has all the above bar the data collection. She has agreed to give this a go in a joint colllaboration.

I (bog standard SALT in public sector who uses ABA to underpin all I do) enjoy pointing out to people that actually 'doing' ABA with kids with severe ASD is the smallest part of my job. Most of the time it is with other kids presenting with different issues.

'When I asked about therapy options I expected her to recommend ABA'

I'm pretty interested in this. Why would you expect her to recommend ABA. Many don't even know what it is. It isn't mainstream and even I have trouble recommending it to people because of the potential trauma that the battle of it could be for the family.

Having said that, I do doubt that a 40hour homebased intenstive programme could be appropriate for a HFA/AS over 5.

Under 5 at the HFA end you are kind of looking to do what any other under 5yr old does i.e. park, swimming, playdates, playgrounds etc with an ABA thread throughout it to support the child getting the most learning opportunities. I think it is unfortunate that this idea of a 'home-programme' is even out there tbh, because rarely is ABA done at home. It should support as 'normal' a life as is possible. I do get a bit fed up of the LA Autism Advisory people saying that ds shouldn't have a 'home programme' because he needs to mix with peers. It's ignorance.

NHS Evidence

This website is described as
'NHS Evidence allows everyone working in health and social care to access a wide range of health information to help them deliver quality patient care'

Put in ABA or any of its derivatives and see how mnay citations you get.

ABA
EIBI
PECS
Person Centred Active Support
Precision Teaching

Bloody hundreds.

Go figure.

Hmm, obviously I can't speak for her. But I would be interested if her rationale was because the cost-benefit just wouldn't be worth it rather than it wouldn't work.

For a AS child you'd probably have to sell both your kidneys to get anyone to agree to a home programme, and a home-programme is unlikely to be appropriate. An alternative barely exists. And you're clearly a very switched on parent who can probably use her time much better helping your ds directly than fighting tooth and nail for a provision you're unlikely to get agreed and if you do, are likely to find anyone to deliver it. Your DS' odds are 'probably' much better NOT going down the formal ABA route on this basis. I'd certainly say that.

For what it is worth I got no recommendation for ABA from my paed either, just 15-20 hours a week of intensive intervention.

Bit of an aside but I have been compiling stats. on SEN for an upcoming presentation and here are some very interesting ones for Englad. You can check on how your county is doing.

I haven't had a chance to read all of the posts, but I thought I would add this quote by Spreat (1982) 'Much like the law of gravity, the laws of learning are always in effect. The question is not whether to use the laws of learning, but rather how to use them effectively'. That is what ABA is the laws of learning, people seem to think it is some packaged intervention for autism, but it is not, it can be applied to anyone. Tesco do a very good job with their Clubcard scheme, they reward your behaviour of shopping there with clubcard points, which makes many people shop there more in future to be able to earn their points, therefore reinforcement has occurred, reinforcement means that the behaviour has increased. There is a great book/audio book by Amy Sutherland called 'What Shamu taught me about Life, Love and Marriage', it basically looks at how she improved her interactions with people by using the principles of ABA. I use the principles in most interactions everyday, they were work very well on my other half!!
If you are using ABA as an auism intervention it doesn't mean that you do not do any other interventions. I use ABA to implement ds speech therapy program, occupational therapy, dental program, horseriding etc, as ensuring that you are using the laws of learning effectively means that he learns things in these programs a lot faster!

Great quote by Spreat Pleasant.

In essence, therefore the argument is that one cannot condemn an entire entitiy because some people do it badly and some people do it well.

That could be

gardening
home schooling
dressing
cooking
Special Ed

Whatever, in short.

What makes ABA different is that it is a science and by definition data and not theory driven. Thus it does not operate by dint of half baked theories and views and general subjective opinion.

If one goes waaaaaaaaaay back to its very early origins with Skinner in his lab, looking at the behaviours of animals, there is a good story about a rat doing something that, according to prevaliling theory, it wasn't 'menat' to do.

Skinners' PhD student discussed this with Skinner in a flap and Skinner calmly stated 'The rat is always right'.

If things aren't working on a programme, a behaviour anlayst doesn't get into a huff and blame the child ('He's autistic/got behaviour issues/has CP/has Down's Syndrome so obviously can't do this.') S/he asks themselves 'What am I doing/not doing that is impeding learning for this child?' The programme is then tweaked until the data reflects positive change.

That is a huge relief and comfort to parents who have been told that the reason their child is not learning is because of the child and not because of their poor pedagogical practices.

Any person who has fought to access ABA knows first hand what it is like to be dismissed, patronised, lied to, deceived and ignored by the pow ers that be. It is thewrefore highly unlikely that they would treat others who are unsure of the benefits of ABA in the same way.

This forum is one of the best places available to discuss SEN which is why I,as a professional and a parent of a child with a communicatino disorder post here.

Bickering and fighting will not help our children, nor will it help improve what is. in the main, a dire SEN system (wtih some honourable exceptions.)

There are exemplary ABA programmes and schools and, at the other end of the spectrum, some dodgy ones. As legislation surrounding who gets to call themselves a behaviour analyst tightens, the dodgy ones will be squeezed out.

Let's have honest open lively critical debate of the sort MN does so well and let us work together for the sake of all of our children.

On that point, in a course I went to ran by the great James Partington (respected academic in this field and alround Very Nice Man), he talked about how he took over his daughter's football team because

'I may not know much about soccer, but I know how to teach effectively. So, they told me what they wanted the kids to learn and I taught it.'

'I may not know much about soccer, but I know how to teach effectively. So, they told me what they wanted the kids to learn and I taught it.'

Moondog, I know someone who did this, first with football, then by teaching the worst class in a deprived school in the East End of London to Morris Dance (of all things) and play instruments to accompany each other to a standard high enough to be booked when in their late teeens, by Walt Disney World for a month to perform 4 shows a day on their stage with free flights, accomodation, disney passes and a wage. It was not a community project, it was because they were the best in the country and had been spotted as professional enough.

This 'teacher' was tone deaf, unable to play any musical instrument and unable to dance anything he taught. He began the whole project because of a bet in the staff room where the deputy head argued that you had to know the subject well to be a good teacher, whilst this teacher argued that the subject is irrelevant, it is 'teaching' which is the skill.

Exactly
Super example Star!

The implications are soooooo exciting for all of us.

Freeing people to learn things to make their lives better, whoever thry are and whatever thry want to do.

We had a spine tingling moment in the big ABA conference in the States, lstening to the lovely dignified Julie Vargas, Skinner's daughter. She's an academic and a kindergarten teacher whose book Behaviour Analysis for effective teaching is a wonderful readable and gripping introduction to this. Highly recommended.

Anyway, she keeps a low profile and whewn she talks, talks of 'Skinner' but, in one symposium I attended last year, which she chaired, she gave her summarty, then put her papers down and said

'I want you to know how toucjed and proud my father would be had he heard what was said today. His life's work was devoted to helping people to be the best they can be, and to live better, happier and more fulfilled lives.'

I swaer that every pair of eyes their glistened. It brings a lump to my throat now to think of it.

Aplogies for shocking typos there. Have something on stove and am supervising two sets of homework as I write.

Overload I think.

What a lot of effort you've gone to there but you've lost me I'm afraid.

I don't think anyone is saying that 'ABA is the only way'.
ABA is, by definition,applied, so it is a systematic aproach used with whatever you want to teach.
It doesn't exist in isolation.

So, you could have ABA based music therapy, or aromatherapy or footspa therapy or beauty therapy.

I have nothing to flog and nothing to gain by advocating as I do.
I'm an overworked bog standard NHS SALT trying to deeal with too many people in too many places whilst tackling vast amounts of pointless paperwork, operating out of a hole of an office.

I know that this has transformed the lives and opinions of many scores of children, their parents and their staff over the last few years, not least of all my own.

I'll read your post again after a glass of wine and try to make some sense of it.

Ok glass of chilled white in hand and kids fed.....

Many people are using the principles of ABA very effectively anyway, whether they know it or not (if they didn't the world as wee know it would not exist. I could sidetrack into a discussion on Radical Behavioursim, Darwinism, survival of the fittest and ontogenic and pyhlogenic factors but that would be overdoing it.)

You've said it as much yourself, Justabout

'I think plenty of people, myself included, have said that in their homes a formal ABA programme is in their view an unnecessary tool, becaue they have tools that are working well already.'

I never assumed you stating such was a criticism of ABA thoguh as you state.Why do you think this?

Dead right. I know lots of insinctively good teachers (I include parents in that) who understand about task analysis, reinforcement and using reinforcement that means something to the child.

My kids do karate and I love it, not leat of all because the trainers have an insinctive understanding of all the principles of effective learning. It's fast, fun, structured, lots of reinforcemnt of all different kinds, a very high rate of responding from the kids, clear, unambiguous intstruction,fantastic, in short.

Many people aren't natural teachers though, and they need theoretical underpinnnig and structure. I always craved it myself in my profession and was always made to feel a little bit old fashioned and dull for basically not wanting to make it up as I went along or believing that if I was to be taken seriously as a professional, I needed recourse to something more concrete than 'gut feeling' or intuition' .

It was rather painful and sobering (whilst hugely liberating) to learn about the science of learning and to see that I had burdened myself with a whole load of half baked theories and ill informed viewpoints. I like to think I got rid of a lot of the bad stuff and kept the bulk of the good.

Often people who are not convinced of the benefits of something, take and aggressive stance, a sort of 'Go on! Prove it then!' approach. I know one person like this who stands firm against a lot of the new things we are taking on whilst all around him embrace them eagerly, with terrific results. Said person said to a colleague 'Go on then. Convince me!' and was astounded when she smiled sweetly and said 'That's not my job.'

There aren't, quite frankly, enough behaviour analysts to serve the needs of those who want it so the possibility of it being foisted on the unwilling is never going to happen anyway.

With regard to your comments about Social Stories and Stagecoach, one of the really great things about a good ABA based educational programme though,. is that the learning part takes place very quickly and effectively, leaving vast swathes of the day open to creative paly and exploration., The kids I work with spend hours singing and dancing and painting and rolling about in the grass.

The only problem with this individual is that they have made a decision based on their opinion. It is not a decision based on the needs of the children.

Just, you say there are people who won't post here because of the ABA posse. This is a big site, there is room for everyone. Hundreds of threads start on different subjects every day. I see plenty on SN on therapies and approaches that I consider to be lunatic fringe if truth be told. I have a choice on whether I go on then and join in a vigorous discussion/indulge in bare knuckle combat/drift off someplace else. I tend to do the latter.

I like the Politics section. It's important to remember that people posting seek the opinions of others otherwise why post? I like the Politics lot. i don't agree with most of what the average politically aware MNer believes in but I like to hear what they have to say and think about it.

Why should SEN be any different? I like to hear form and about people who are not convinced about the benefits of ABA.That's the nature of a discussion and an internet forum.

Ultimatley some stuff we take on board and some we don't and that's fine. I don't watch tv.Haven't for about 5 years and doubt I ever will again. Friends and colleagues exclaim in horror and tell me all the ways my life is poorer for not having tv in it. Maybe so. I don't feel it.

X post here - does anyone know / have experience of acquiring ABA therapy through Bupa or similar health insurance?

We just can not afford it (£ probs here ) but I am very keen to try this on our (possibly) mildly autistic DS (3.10).

DP can get insurance through his work for family, so I am wondering...

Reading through Moondog's comments I do begin to feel that a more exact parallel for the discussions about ABA would be thus...

New Poster: I am thinking about strategies to try for my son with ADHD.
Several Old Posters: Have you taken our personality test/read a copy of The Watchtower/heard the good news?

When ABA is talkied about as a structuring principle underlying reality as we know it ("if they didn't the world as wee know it would not exist") then it begins to seem less a therapy which may well help children with certain kinds of difficulties and more like, well, a religion.

And that's the point where the proponents of ABA begin to read other people's choice not to do it as a criticism of ABA and of people who do it: 'those who are not with us are against us'.

By the way, Justa, I'm interested in the idea of drama therapy too, and in fact have been trying to find a suitable drama group for DS1 for ages -- that is, one that's not like stagecoach.