Paed says 'nothing i can do' for a willfull ds1(6.8)

[Oblomov]

I had the consultation with Paed yesterday. He is the specialist for ADHD, I had infact seen his book and read about it in he papers. So I knew I was in good hands.
Dh did not attend. what a mistake that was. He was going to, then when I re-read the letter it said about initially weighing and height ds, then 15 mins with dr. so I said to dh maybe not come to this one, seems basic. come to the next.
But there was no next.
we went in and ds1 sat there reading a book. with ds2 in the buggy. I thought this was totally inappropriate to discuss ds1, whilst he was in the room.
I could not speak freely and the school SENCO lady had prviously advised me of not to speak about him in front of him.

Perhaps I should give some history.
Ds1 is 'difficult'. School have no concerns.
He is not different to any of his classmates. They too answer back, interrupt, stroppy etc.
The only difference is that for them it is occasional, just a phase. for ds1 it is constant. he just whinges and wines. answers back. he is so defiant. stubborn.
all punishments and disciplines are non effective. Nintendo ds taken away, no tv, early bed. we have sat down and had meetings. talked about his behaviour.
we ignore. praise the good, ignore the bad. walk away. tried spending more time with him, thinking it was attention seeking. maybe sibling jealousy, because ds2 arrived a month after he started school. but to be honest he has always been quite difficult. just got worse in the last 2 yrs since school started.
the trouble is that none of these punishments seem to bother him. presumably they must. he must just be a very good actor.
of if they bother him; it doesn't seem to make his basic behaviour any better. it seems to be ineffective.
since he started school it has got worse. I mean I?ve always thought that I was loving, firm but fair. I have applied the basic parenting principals since birth.
and the glitch in my armour is that he is very powerful. he knows he makes my life unbearable. his bahaviour i can't stand. he knows this because no matter how much i try and hide it, it is the truth. I am the parent. how did it come to this?
I am happy at work, love dh. love ds2.
His behaviour is not awful. Just irritating and wearing.
He went to stay with my mum for 2 days just before term started. She devoted time to him entirely. And he was still whinging and answering back. She said she was shocked.
I got a bit cross. Thinking, god you only had it for 2 days. He wears me down and down and down, over 5/8 days. Then I snap because I can?t take it anymore.
I just hate him. truly he has worn me down. like living with an abuser I assume. when he does do nice things they just don't wash with me anymore. dh was horrified when I explained that I wish he could be adopted. he said oh you don't mean that. but truly I do. I told my mum the same 6 months ago. I have thought about it for many months. Tried to deny that I don?t love him anymore. Then admitted it. Worked on trying to rebuild my love for him, but so far that has not happened. I just hate him more. Everyone seems appalled by this. By why should you have any undying love for your child? If it my dh treating me like shit, you would all be jumping to tell me to leave him.
I have tried and tried and tried with ds1. I have lots of other pleasures in my life. He is the only real problem.

THIS IS NOT A PHASE.

SO I go to parenting classes. Useless. teach me nothing i didn't already know, wasn't already implementing. I speak to senco woman at school. She is lovely. she has no concerns. Tells me that only a child psychologist can help me. so i go to gp, then get paed appointment.
So off I go to paed appointment yesterday. He says he is wilful. Bright. Recommends 2 books:
The strong willed child by James Dobson
1-2-3 Magic, by Dr Phelan.
Says he will see me in 12 months.
I tell him that I need more. that i need help. That I am disappointed.
I have asked him twice to see a child psychologist as school senco and my mum (who is a sw) had advised me that I need.
I feel dismissed.
But I am desperate. I have gone past breaking point. Now I am numb and desperate.
I feel let down by the paed.
My mum recons that I do really need help. Help to cope. And that my marriage is in jeopardy over the strain.
I agree.

I will read the book, but am I too conceited to assume that they won?t tell me anythitngn I don?t already know ?
Hoping minxofmancunia will come and post. I know that she too comes from a totally loving family, has done all the paretning rules correctly, and yet has a very defiant and willfull dd.

What do I do ?

Sorry to hear this oblomov . I have a very wilful child but TBH reading some of the posts on this thread I think I get off lightly.

Sympathies to all of you. It's so hard to deal with.

"Maybe you are looking for faults and help with the wrong person? Maybe the problem is you, and not your child?"

O.k. then QS. Shoot. Give it to me all barrells. I know I am strong enough to take it. And I really really do want to hear what you think/ seriously. I beg you. Give it to me straight.
What is MY problem?

i realise you may not want more books... but... just in case... i had terrible problems with ds1 at about the same age... the bit about the usual tricks of discipline not being at all effective really resonated with me...this book completely changed how i dealt with him and helped hugely on a practical day to day level

www.amazon.co.uk/Try-Make-Me-Revolutionary-Program/dp/157954553X/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284031598&sr=8-6

He gets prasied alot. Not just for "doing" but for "being". Got that from the Surrey Parenting Puzzle course.
I haev always praised him.
tell him he was kind, loving, so nice how he looked after his brother, was thoughtful how he ......
hios reading is very good at school. pariase it and tell him it is gettign even better.
guess what, he then gets ll cocky and says he doesn't need to read becuse he's soooo good. i breathe. calm. "yes, but to keep being good, to maintain it, we need to keep doing it ". inside i'm thinking ... god give me strength.

"you can't make me do anyhting. I know that. and more importantly, you know that"

says a 6 yr old boy, to his mummy.

Oblomov,

please, don't get wound up. Every parent knows about negative attention spirals, but this is not that scenario.

Do read up on behavioural management. It is all about getting to the root cause of behaviours, and sorting out how to reinforce positive behaviours.

Sounds simple, but for eg, my dd1 would rather be told off/smacked (yes, I have been there)/disciplined (even to the point of losing all privileges/favourite toys) rather than not be noticed (and I don't mean that I routinely ignore her. but 100% of my attention is not enough)

dd1 is a pretty extreme case (and I am making her sound like an awful child - she isn't. she's is a bright, funny little girl. who is exhausting to live with)

one important point to remember - you say all punishments/discipline are not effective - your ds will have a currency. you just need to find out what it is.

Can you afford a boarding school? I know they have state boarding schools from 11, that are a bit more affordable.
Maybe he needs a different day school, if his behaviour has got worse since school maybe that school is just too strict/lax for him?
He's probably just naturally a difficult child (I have an easy one and a difficult one myself). At least if he weekly boarded, he would appreciate you a bit more at the weekends.

You are writing about me as a child. Good as gold at school, nightmare at home. I know that my mum wanted me taken away as well.

I believe that a lot of my problems were down to depression and from as early as I can remember, I felt isolated even though I had loads of friends. I was so desperate for approval (and still am) that school wound me up so tight, I couldn't cope with the strain and picked fights at home. For me this culminated in a suicide attempt at 14 and even then my mum was refused any help for me.

I still get anxious in social situations and have problems processing any sort of emotions because I have spent so long shutting them away until they become unbearable. I've had to have quite a bit of therapy but me and mum finally get along.

Now this isn't to say that your ds is the same as I was just to illustrate that there may very well be a mental health problem that needs to be addressed before the behaviour will stop. I hope you and your son get the help you need and deserve.

just quickly

reading your last post - my brother was exactly like that.

it is all abut control, and controlling those around him. dd1 is exactly the same, underneath all her other ASD issues (anguage delay, etc) she lives to control me. not always in a bad way - she is good at manipulating via nice behaviour too.

But it is all abotu manipulation and control.

and you need to start getting some of that control back.

really, do look into ABA (Applied Behaviour Management) - it is all about stuff like this.

have to go. finished work. need collect ds2 nursery. back later. please keep posting. i do appreciate it.

maryz:

I know. we have spoken about this before.

my brother was exactly the same, it seemed.

BUT (and I do not AT ALL minimise what my mother went through in saying this) - if caught early enough, and the controlling behaviours managed themselves, I do think it would have been possible to limit some of my brother's behaviours.

I face this with dd1 now. and we are doing our utmost to get a hnadle on it now, becasue as she gets older and older, gaining that control is only going to get harder

Oblomov :(

your ds sounds just like my ds2 at that age.. omg and did we have the run about with the proffessionals! .. BTW we now have a DX asc/AS.. sensory issues and lots of other related things.

firstly Im going to pour you a cuppa and pass cake.. because you need it.

Now I know that you don't have a DX..ut a lot of the stratagies for behaviour issues I and others use for our asd dc's will do no harm at all in an NT child.. if they work great if not.. back to the drawing board.

I would ask that we have found that a lot of ds2 moaning, has actually been sensory issues that have not been expressed in a way that anyone has picked up on the cause.

also he may be great at school because of the routine/ rules etc etc.

ds2 just doesn't do 'punishments' .. he actually could care less about what he is deprived from. He also doesn't really resopnd to ingorning or to praise very well either.

what he does respond to is whether something in his perception is just.

so we use a traffic light system with red and yellow cards. there are rules attatched to each colour.. if on a red he doesn't remove himself... we remove ourselves.

etc..
also for whiniging ... the scales of justice.. are fab! ( google tony attwood scales of justise..if you can't find it.. give me a shout on the SN board and I'll scan what you need and send it to you.)

I felt very much the way you do now.. before I realised that actually ds2 wasn't doing things to get to me or just to be naughty or deffiant... he actually has hardly and ToM, empathy or social graces,so he can't help it... and it was that information that bought us back to where we should be in our mother child relationship.

hth even if it's just a little bit.

silver, i haven't found his 'currency' yet. not for lack or trying.

really, gotta go.

I'm really sorry in advance becasue I know this isn't any constructive use but it strikes me that parenting techniques/behavioural tactics etc aren't really going to help because presumably his bahaviour stems from unhappiness? His and yours.

But its chicken and egg, isn't it? How can you help him feel better, more confident and more stable when you feel the way you feel? And how can you feel better while he behaves this way?

I really feel for you, I dont feel this way now - thank god cos its pure hell - but I spent the first year of ds's life wishing someone would take him away or that I could turn tme back and realsise what a massive mistake having him would be. (not comparable to your situation, I know btu can empathise with your feelings).

Maybe family counselling?

Oblo.. I know your probably gone ... i just want you to know that ds2 also does not have a currency.

it will be okay.

As a person with no experience of this and advice to offer I jsut wanted to say that the way you feel is totally understandable.

I don't believe you don't love him, maybe you hate him a little bit for the way his behaviour affects the family and how he makes you feel but if it came to it I am sure you would do anything for him. The opposite of love is indifference - not irritation anger even hatred.

Your love is crowded out at the moment and it may be crowded out forever if you don't get some bloody help.

Could you afford to pay for a psychotherapist on a private basis?

In your shoes I would be selling my soul to the devil to pay for help.

I struggle finding a currency too. DS is the same age, also wilful, also pushes and pushes, and my escalation from mild discipline (unheeded) to stronger (unheeded) feels like it's going to end in emotional abuse of him so nothing is resolved, often.

I don't draw parallels with your situation Oblomov as it's not a constant with us (though there have been times when it has felt like it). Can I just echo the need to get expert help, family counselling, individual counselling.

(My mother didn't, when my brother turned out to be like this after me, a docile child. She did end up emotionally abusing him to some degree, I think, and then left when he was 5. That was not a good solution, I don't think. The whole situation was a mess though.)

i'd also add that with ds1, i found that the more i tried to talk to him/get others to talk to him/find out why he behaved that way, the worse he got... he lapped up all the attention (and he was for a long time the only child of a single parent, with 100% of my time and energy as well as a devoted uncle and wonderful sets of grandparents on both sides) and always wanted more.

the book i linked to before gave me immediate strategies to use which worked amazingly (and i was previously a snob about any sort of self help book)

it stopped me wasting my time on sticker charts and on punishments that didn't work.

i used to have quotes from the book blue tacked up around the house to remind me what to do and not do.

ds1 used to love 'pushing my buttons' - he was incredibly socially sophisticated even at 5, which sounds very similar.

The one of my 5 DSs who was like this has grown up and is now truly lovely.

Things that helped: keeping him VERY busy - he was v unco-ordinated but loved swimming and adventure playgrounds (could never bear to watch him though). Found a kids cookery class he loved where the teacher was a SAINT.

None of the things he liked that kept him busy were EVER at risk of being taken away from him if he was badly behaved because WE needed him to do them! I did restrict other things as Consequences and he never seemed to care but I think he did.

We tried to do lots of praise of him that he could 'accidently overhear' because if you praised him directly he would do something awful like spit or swear or break whatever he had made that you were praising him for.

And completely randomly...he was the one of mine who LOVED going to church, we only went occasionally but he liked the atmosphere.

Good luck.

Oblomov, very un mumsnetty hugs

Coping with wilful children on the normal scale is hard enough, so I can't imagine just how tough your life is right now.

I can't help on the behaviour front, but I remember reading this thread a while ago. Different situation, but the same issue of losing that love for your child. Somewhere in there is a mention of a reputedly excellent clinic dealing with these feelings. Don't know if it might help in your situation, but thought I'd find it for you in case it's worth a look.

Keep talking about this, to us or in rl, it can only help to try to diffuse things a little.

You sound so worn down by it all. I wonder if you could give yourself (and ds) a break for a few days by just saying 'yes' to everything, agreeing with what he says and not getting involved in arguments(easier said than done) but i sometimes have 'yes' days with my dc and they seem to respond to not being told 'no' all the time. (I can wrap a 'no' up in many guises but my ds (3) knows i'm saying no and will have a meltdown about it)

So if he does say 'i don't need to read anymore i'm sooo good' just reply 'you are absolutely right'.

You will have to be in a particularly calm mood the day you try it, but perhaps it might break the cycle of negativity a bit. Who knows?!

There is also How to Talk to Kids etc but i find you need the patience of a saint to implement it with a particularly wilful child!

Sorry to hear you're struggling with this Oblomov. Your post rang a few bells with me. You say your ds's behaviour is not awful just wearing ... my 5 year old is like that, always always always answering back, whining, stroppy, tends to laugh/not care about punishments etc. Difficult to take him anywhere because if it's not exactly what he wants to do then he makes life impossible, to the extent that if you're driving the car he will start taking his belt off/jumping around in the back and making smart-arse comments so you can't concentrate.

What noteventhebestdrummer said also resonates: mine is also very uncoordinated, sometimes seems he's about to fall over, always jumping around although he can run, ride a bike etc. He's also extremely intelligent. He has to be completely engaged all of the time and obviously that's not possible when you have other people in the family to think about.

After he recently ruined a large part of our holiday through basically refusing to walk anywhere - I mean anywhere - and whinging non-stop about absolutely everything, I decided to change attitude and now just switch off from him. It is not your fault he is like this, it is not my fault mine is like this, but perhaps we are trying too hard? I know I was, I was convinced there was something I was doing wrong. I certainly feel a lot calmer and more in control about the whole thing.

Sorry just rambling thoughts don't know if they're any use to you but you are certainly not alone.

I am reeling that a British paediatrician recommended James Dobson to anyone