Paed says 'nothing i can do' for a willfull ds1(6.8)

[Oblomov]

I had the consultation with Paed yesterday. He is the specialist for ADHD, I had infact seen his book and read about it in he papers. So I knew I was in good hands.
Dh did not attend. what a mistake that was. He was going to, then when I re-read the letter it said about initially weighing and height ds, then 15 mins with dr. so I said to dh maybe not come to this one, seems basic. come to the next.
But there was no next.
we went in and ds1 sat there reading a book. with ds2 in the buggy. I thought this was totally inappropriate to discuss ds1, whilst he was in the room.
I could not speak freely and the school SENCO lady had prviously advised me of not to speak about him in front of him.

Perhaps I should give some history.
Ds1 is 'difficult'. School have no concerns.
He is not different to any of his classmates. They too answer back, interrupt, stroppy etc.
The only difference is that for them it is occasional, just a phase. for ds1 it is constant. he just whinges and wines. answers back. he is so defiant. stubborn.
all punishments and disciplines are non effective. Nintendo ds taken away, no tv, early bed. we have sat down and had meetings. talked about his behaviour.
we ignore. praise the good, ignore the bad. walk away. tried spending more time with him, thinking it was attention seeking. maybe sibling jealousy, because ds2 arrived a month after he started school. but to be honest he has always been quite difficult. just got worse in the last 2 yrs since school started.
the trouble is that none of these punishments seem to bother him. presumably they must. he must just be a very good actor.
of if they bother him; it doesn't seem to make his basic behaviour any better. it seems to be ineffective.
since he started school it has got worse. I mean I?ve always thought that I was loving, firm but fair. I have applied the basic parenting principals since birth.
and the glitch in my armour is that he is very powerful. he knows he makes my life unbearable. his bahaviour i can't stand. he knows this because no matter how much i try and hide it, it is the truth. I am the parent. how did it come to this?
I am happy at work, love dh. love ds2.
His behaviour is not awful. Just irritating and wearing.
He went to stay with my mum for 2 days just before term started. She devoted time to him entirely. And he was still whinging and answering back. She said she was shocked.
I got a bit cross. Thinking, god you only had it for 2 days. He wears me down and down and down, over 5/8 days. Then I snap because I can?t take it anymore.
I just hate him. truly he has worn me down. like living with an abuser I assume. when he does do nice things they just don't wash with me anymore. dh was horrified when I explained that I wish he could be adopted. he said oh you don't mean that. but truly I do. I told my mum the same 6 months ago. I have thought about it for many months. Tried to deny that I don?t love him anymore. Then admitted it. Worked on trying to rebuild my love for him, but so far that has not happened. I just hate him more. Everyone seems appalled by this. By why should you have any undying love for your child? If it my dh treating me like shit, you would all be jumping to tell me to leave him.
I have tried and tried and tried with ds1. I have lots of other pleasures in my life. He is the only real problem.

THIS IS NOT A PHASE.

SO I go to parenting classes. Useless. teach me nothing i didn't already know, wasn't already implementing. I speak to senco woman at school. She is lovely. she has no concerns. Tells me that only a child psychologist can help me. so i go to gp, then get paed appointment.
So off I go to paed appointment yesterday. He says he is wilful. Bright. Recommends 2 books:
The strong willed child by James Dobson
1-2-3 Magic, by Dr Phelan.
Says he will see me in 12 months.
I tell him that I need more. that i need help. That I am disappointed.
I have asked him twice to see a child psychologist as school senco and my mum (who is a sw) had advised me that I need.
I feel dismissed.
But I am desperate. I have gone past breaking point. Now I am numb and desperate.
I feel let down by the paed.
My mum recons that I do really need help. Help to cope. And that my marriage is in jeopardy over the strain.
I agree.

I will read the book, but am I too conceited to assume that they won?t tell me anythitngn I don?t already know ?
Hoping minxofmancunia will come and post. I know that she too comes from a totally loving family, has done all the paretning rules correctly, and yet has a very defiant and willfull dd.

What do I do ?

Yes oblomov, there was a child pyschologist and a family therapist there together. There were no great revelations, to be honest, if you have been to parenting classes and read lots of books (DS2 has mild aspergers and I have read sooo many books) you probably won't hear anything startling but the process itself could have results, DS2 & DS3 were asked about what they liked about DS1 and what they didn't like about his behaviour etc., in front of him. I think it all helped Ds1 see himself as others see him IYKWIM. The professionals were quite relaxed about DS1's behaviour (which at the time involved threatening to throw himself under cars and hurting his brothers) they implied that I was expecting a bit too much emotional intelligence from DS1, I was a bit about that at first but came to see some truth in it and that took the pressure off. They were also quite complimentary about us as a family which made DH and I feel better.
I used DS2's vulnerability as an extra reason to get referred but actually he is very well adjusted!

from Wikipedia:

In his book The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson suggests that if authority is portrayed correctly to a child, the child will understand how to interact with other authority figures:
? By learning to yield to the loving authority... of his parents, a child learns to submit to other forms of authority which will confront him later in his life ? his teachers, school principal, police, neighbors and employers.[42] ?

Dobson stresses that parents must uphold their authority and do so consistently, comparing the relationship between parents and disobedient children to a battle: "When you are defiantly challenged, win decisively."[40] In The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson draws an analogy between the defiance of a family pet and that of a small child, and concludes that "just as surely as a dog will occasionally challenge the authority of his leaders, so will a little child ? only more so."[40] (emphasis in original)

When asked "How long do you think a child should be allowed to cry after being punished? Is there a limit?" Dobson responded:
? Yes, I believe there should be a limit. As long as the tears represent a genuine release of emotion, they should be permitted to fall. But crying quickly changes from inner sobbing to an expression of protest... Real crying usually lasts two minutes or less but may continue for five. After that point, the child is merely complaining, and the change can be recognized in the tone and intensity of his voice. I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears. In younger children, crying can easily be stopped by getting them interested in something else."[43]

I have read the book (was given it by MIL when ds1 was born) and in that chapter (the one quoted on wiki) he talks about "training" a puppy using a thin belt to inflict punishment, and is totally unabashed about recommending the same treatment for a young child

and when he talks about the defiant crying, he means after corporal punishment

the sick bastard

I would report the paediatrician to the primary care trust for giving shockingly shit advice, personally

how about looking into attatchment parenting? theraplay approaches? no disipline will work, as there has to be an attatchment there.

omg oblomov you have just described dd2. she is 6.8 and exactly the same but has had tendencies to be violent with other kids at school.

School have handled really badly and since she started she has been dismissed from class at the slightest sight of her not even sitting still.

I went to gp a few weeks ago and they have said unless i do a parenting course they will not refer her to a adhd consultant.

All i want is someone to say she is fine and for me to feel like someone believes she is nota naughty child just has some issues we need to sort out

James fucking Dobson. Find a new GP, Oblomov, for that recommendation alone.

He advocates smacking, absolutely:
"Some strong-willed children absolutely demand to be spanked, and their wishes should be granted. . . [T]wo or three stinging strokes on the legs or buttocks with a switch are usually sufficient to emphasize the point, 'You must obey me.'"
From The Strong-Willed Child, pp. 53-4.
AND
"[P]ain is a marvelous purifier. . . It is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely."
From Dare to Discipline, pages 6 and 7

He says that "tolerance and its first cousin, diversity, 'are almost always buzzwords for homosexual advocacy.'" and also "Homosexuals are not monogamous. They want to destroy the institution of marriage. It will destroy marriage. It will destroy the Earth."
He's anti-choice.
He said "My observation is that women are merely waiting for their husbands to assume leadership" and believes that sex education strips girls of their desire for modesty.
I'm pretty sure he's also the bloke who says that fathers should show their small sons their penises in the shower, and say things like "yours will be big like this too", to instil a sense of manly pride in them.

also ds1 (9 in jan)

gp said adhd or aspergers. paed shrugged.
every teacher says 'goodness!' but then says he just needs to be motivated. the last one finally caved and said maybe odd. (how you go from 'nothing wrong' to obsessive defiant i don't know.

anyway. he's always been as stubborn as the day is long, but the last six months have been more of a trial than normal. he's also not reliably continent and has periods of day and night enuresis and soiling. no apparent medical cause except obstinacy. gp said we are to make him launder his own pants. (how? it took two hours the first time)
he gets sooooo angry, refuses point blank to interact at all, and turns away from you and folds his arms, if, for example, you ask him to clean his teeth.

he sees the school counsellor periodically (it started because of the wetting/ soiling but i have discussed the issues we face)

gp is expecting to get an update in the next week or so - next step is apparently camhs-type referral.

he can be sooooo lovely. but he can be an utter destroyer of life as well.

he's quite clever. school generally love him when he's 'on' because he can walk any test with his eyes closed. this has meant they usually just smile at me and tilt their heads if i confess there are some mornings i can't get him dressed to leave the house as he just sits on his bedroom floor.

i've bought 'from chaos to calm' recently. some of it chimes, so i might go there next...

I have a 5.6 year old DS who is very very similar to your DS in many ways. He constantly pushes me (not literally!) all the time and whinges/whines about everything but at school he is a bright happy co-operative child.

At times I liken his behaviour to a toddler and like your DS I had no real typical toddler tantrums with him-he was actually a joy to be around.

My parents witnessed a particularly impressive outburst over the summer holidays-normally he is absolutely fine with them and indeed with DH most of the time and the one thing they said to me which really struck home was that it was like looking at me when I was a child. I was exactly the same and to a certain extent I still am I suppose and its made me realise that I think some of it is because we are so similar that we rub each other up the wrong way and he knows exactly what winds me up and plays on that completely.

DS is also very bright and we too have had the "I don't need to do reading/homework anymore because I know how to do it all now" and I reacted in exactly the same way as you did...now Ive decided a different approach and have just laughed it off and say that I'll write in his reading book that DS says he doesn't need to read anymore. Its only be a week so far but it seems to be working!

Have absolutely no practical advice to give but just wanted to let you know you are not alone-there are times when I have wished DS had never been born (I cannot believe I have written that!) but deep down I love him with all my heart and it would destroy me if anything happened to him but that doesn't mean I don't have to like him all the time.

It really is like looking at a smaller,angrier version of myself which is why I think I take it so personally sometimes!

Ob asked doctor's name cos there are some real 'quacks' out there blurting all sorts of crap on this subject. This doctor is obviously the 'real thing', so not worries there then. From what you say it doesn't sound like ADHD, simply him and if you ever feel you really need to put your mind at rest, you know where to take him ... junction 11 of the M25 Good luck !

Hi Oblomov i'm so sorry to hear you're going through all of this. It's true my dd is very defiant ans strong willed she's nearly 4 now, but TBH things are much much easier these days. I feel part of the reason is I'm actually much happier and i'm also a LOT stricter. There's no negotiating, cajoling, distraction etc.etc. I still do praise and positive re-inforcement and so on but it's 3 strkes and you're out. I ask her to do something 3 times and if she messes about it's done for her.

On ocassion and I know this isn't recommended i've ended up really shouting or using time out swiftly and assertively and it's really worked. Good behaviour straight afterwards.

A lot of the advice on here is really good.

Other stuff involves me, I do quite a lot of stuff for myself now, gym,yoga etc. Dh accepts this and is happy with it as he realises I'm happier and a better parent when i'm not enslaved by housework and childcare. he does all the parties/socialising with other parents bit as I hate it so much. Also I've been a lot happier and finaly accepted my role as parent now ds is here. FINALLY i'm enjoying it.

The truth is i think a lot of parents would never have done it if they realised what it was really like. It's not fun, it's boring and draining and exhausting. It hugely affects your relationship and takes a lot of the fun out of your life.

Where we differ tho is in our relationships. i think your love for you dh and vice versa is your strength. Hold onto it. I no longer love dh the way I used to. Having children has caused such deep rifts between us they will never heal, particularly after dd was born. I don't hate dd, I love her more than life and feel many of her difficulties are as a result of my mood, my hatred of parenthood (not her being a parent) and mine and dhs relationship difficulties. When things are calm bewteen us she's a lot calmer and happier herself.

I work as a therapist in CAMHS, your ds from what you say your ds doesn't have ADHD. I think you're insightful in recognising difficulties within you as the first point of intervention. I think there may be attachment issues between the 2 of you stemming from your feelings about family life and yourself. This was certainly the case with me. I say attachment issues NOT disorder as it's a broad spectrum.

Go back to the GP, ask for CBT for yourself 1:1 with an experienced therapist none of this stepped care stuff. OR look on the BABCP website for a good private therapist in your area. Check they have the post graduate diploma in cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies as a minimum.

Then ask for a referral to a clinical psychologist in CAMHS and once there push for family therapy. Say you're done parenting and so on. Paeds deal with intrinsic difficulties such as ADHD/ASD but this is a relationship issue and needs systemic intervention.

I wish you and your family all the best.

Hi honey, I just wondered out if interest if you would look at this questionnaire and see if it relates to your ds1 - if it does than I know a practioner who may be able to help

Big hugs in the meantime, I don't envy you dd4 is so much more defiant than the others put together but not in the league you are having to cope with.

www.inpp.org.uk/questions/index.php

shocked by the evil pervert Dobson!
I think bovine's post is wonderful - very inspirational & I think she is bang on to say you must work on your relationship before you try discipline theories. I find it odd and inappropriate to talk about your very small son as if he is an abusive adult partner. I am sure he is hard work, but that just sounds such a distorted perspective that I can't help think that some counselling for you would be a good idea.

Thank you for all posts. There is actually an awful lot of info here. lots of valid points. and I will need to re-read and re-read and maybe even take some notes.
I will do this. over the next 2-3 days.
Thank you to you all.

Hope there is something here that can help, good luck.

UPDATE:
Just to let you know that DS1 has been diagnosed with ODD. I paid privately to see the Top Dog Paed, that I was supposed to have seen on the NHS a couple of weeks ago.
So I wasn't depressed. It wasn't child abuse. It was ODD. Shame I had to beg for help for nearly 2 years to get that diagnosis. Now I have to see a top child pyschologist (she phoned me 1 hr after my appointment with him and i am seeing her monday ) to help repair the damage to me, and heal my relationship to ds1. And obviously to help repair our marriage that would have already broken if it hadn't been for my inner strength. Maybe people will keep their sanctimonious judgemental comments to themselves now that a diagnosis has been given.
Just to thank you all. All your advice and support. I perservered, and got good treatment. I also went to see a new gp and get a referal for counselling.

I am still traipsing through the thread, taking on board all suggestions. Intend to attack it/deal with it from all sides.

Thank you very much.

I am so pleased for you, and for you to have got some help.

It will be a long journey, and I would recommend the SEN section for moral support. (Oh and you need a thick skin as people will pooh pooh ODD, just like Dyslexia (thick middle class kids) ASD (naughty middle class kids) etc.)

Good luck!

Wow, Oblomov, in a way I'm sorry that I was so right in what I said before.
OTOH, I am having a terrible two days with my own 6yo DS and it is comforting to read that you've made some progress.

I also need to grow a much thicker skin (how???)

have you thought of maybe your sister or your mother having him for a while? to give you BOTH a break. maybe that will bring out what the problem is. Has anyone in the family who is close tried to talk to him You should get yourself counseling ASAP. Some children are extremely will full and truly need a very very strong and consistant hand. As much as you think it cant help i promise you it can. It may also throw up some surprising reasons for the behaviour. the counseling.! good luck

Goodness - reading with sympathy and interest.
Another willful and defiant DD (5.4) here. Always been trouble, bright, capable girl.
Been seen by pcamhs after an arguement with headteacher (DD won apparently!!)
I often think something's not quite right, but pcamhs ruled out aspergers and autism.
I have no answer, but I COMPLETELY understand your feelings towards ds. I think you know deep down that you are a GOOD mum. Just keep coping somehow - you have to.
Are you on AD's? I hope you have some good friends with whom you can relax with. Mine know how dd is and are very patient.
Good luck, and hang in there. We all need to.

Thank you. I am not on AD's. No one thinks I am depressed.
Right now I can't stop sobbing though.
Will look out for Evenstar. cheers for that.

More I investigate, more it seems there's nothing that can be done. 300 research projects into ADHD. 19 into ODD. medications for hyperactivity for ADHD is not required for the sedentary ODD's. CPS and behavioural therapy are fine for parents who have never seen a supernanny or dr tanya byron. but if you are and have always adhered to all the parenting guidelines recommended, then you are now screwed becasue they basically have no suggestions for you. I have spend hours reserching in the last few days.
it really is doom and gloom. how depressing is thta.
I was no so naieve to expect some magic wand. instant effect. but they basically say thta there is little you can do. so where does thta leave me now. how f**king demoralising.

Oblomov - Would you consider AD's for yourself? They do help me.
Can I ask about DS1 please? Can he tow the line when he wants to? My DD is awful too (after reading your story have looked up ODD and it looks pretty spot on) but occasionally she can be nice. It always worries me slightly though, because I'm just waiting for the next blow-up or tantrum.
I will talk to our pcamhs lady about ODD, but the web sites don't mention about being nice at all.??? What do you reckon?
I don't know what the answer is to getting by though. If you were to write a book about coping statergies though I'd buy it!