Paed says 'nothing i can do' for a willfull ds1(6.8)

[Oblomov]

I had the consultation with Paed yesterday. He is the specialist for ADHD, I had infact seen his book and read about it in he papers. So I knew I was in good hands.
Dh did not attend. what a mistake that was. He was going to, then when I re-read the letter it said about initially weighing and height ds, then 15 mins with dr. so I said to dh maybe not come to this one, seems basic. come to the next.
But there was no next.
we went in and ds1 sat there reading a book. with ds2 in the buggy. I thought this was totally inappropriate to discuss ds1, whilst he was in the room.
I could not speak freely and the school SENCO lady had prviously advised me of not to speak about him in front of him.

Perhaps I should give some history.
Ds1 is 'difficult'. School have no concerns.
He is not different to any of his classmates. They too answer back, interrupt, stroppy etc.
The only difference is that for them it is occasional, just a phase. for ds1 it is constant. he just whinges and wines. answers back. he is so defiant. stubborn.
all punishments and disciplines are non effective. Nintendo ds taken away, no tv, early bed. we have sat down and had meetings. talked about his behaviour.
we ignore. praise the good, ignore the bad. walk away. tried spending more time with him, thinking it was attention seeking. maybe sibling jealousy, because ds2 arrived a month after he started school. but to be honest he has always been quite difficult. just got worse in the last 2 yrs since school started.
the trouble is that none of these punishments seem to bother him. presumably they must. he must just be a very good actor.
of if they bother him; it doesn't seem to make his basic behaviour any better. it seems to be ineffective.
since he started school it has got worse. I mean I?ve always thought that I was loving, firm but fair. I have applied the basic parenting principals since birth.
and the glitch in my armour is that he is very powerful. he knows he makes my life unbearable. his bahaviour i can't stand. he knows this because no matter how much i try and hide it, it is the truth. I am the parent. how did it come to this?
I am happy at work, love dh. love ds2.
His behaviour is not awful. Just irritating and wearing.
He went to stay with my mum for 2 days just before term started. She devoted time to him entirely. And he was still whinging and answering back. She said she was shocked.
I got a bit cross. Thinking, god you only had it for 2 days. He wears me down and down and down, over 5/8 days. Then I snap because I can?t take it anymore.
I just hate him. truly he has worn me down. like living with an abuser I assume. when he does do nice things they just don't wash with me anymore. dh was horrified when I explained that I wish he could be adopted. he said oh you don't mean that. but truly I do. I told my mum the same 6 months ago. I have thought about it for many months. Tried to deny that I don?t love him anymore. Then admitted it. Worked on trying to rebuild my love for him, but so far that has not happened. I just hate him more. Everyone seems appalled by this. By why should you have any undying love for your child? If it my dh treating me like shit, you would all be jumping to tell me to leave him.
I have tried and tried and tried with ds1. I have lots of other pleasures in my life. He is the only real problem.

THIS IS NOT A PHASE.

SO I go to parenting classes. Useless. teach me nothing i didn't already know, wasn't already implementing. I speak to senco woman at school. She is lovely. she has no concerns. Tells me that only a child psychologist can help me. so i go to gp, then get paed appointment.
So off I go to paed appointment yesterday. He says he is wilful. Bright. Recommends 2 books:
The strong willed child by James Dobson
1-2-3 Magic, by Dr Phelan.
Says he will see me in 12 months.
I tell him that I need more. that i need help. That I am disappointed.
I have asked him twice to see a child psychologist as school senco and my mum (who is a sw) had advised me that I need.
I feel dismissed.
But I am desperate. I have gone past breaking point. Now I am numb and desperate.
I feel let down by the paed.
My mum recons that I do really need help. Help to cope. And that my marriage is in jeopardy over the strain.
I agree.

I will read the book, but am I too conceited to assume that they won?t tell me anythitngn I don?t already know ?
Hoping minxofmancunia will come and post. I know that she too comes from a totally loving family, has done all the paretning rules correctly, and yet has a very defiant and willfull dd.

What do I do ?

Oblomov, I've just caught up on this thread. I'm so glad you seem to be getting somewhere with professional help. I just wanted to say that it sounds like you are doing an absolutely fantastic job under unbelievably hard circumstances.

I think some posters have got confused between you letting off steam and gathering thoughts on here, and how you are actually parenting in real life. It sounds like you are doing the absolute best you can, so try not to fret and second guess how much ds guesses of your thoughts - you are doing your best and that's all you can do.

It partly sounds like (entirely justifiable) grief for the son you had, and the family unit you wanted and may never quite have. Similar to a parent maybe coming to terms with a disabled child I guess. Once you get the right diagnosis and help, and you can start to move forward, perhaps you can work through that grief and some of the negativity will start to go. Ignore me if I'm talking crap though.

You've probably got as far as you can with this thread, the SN forum should be much more useful, with lots of support (and less negativity). Good luck, if you've come this far, you can keep going and get the best help you can.

oblomov, I have just caught up with htis, I was an early contributor to the thread.

I am so pleased (that sounds really wrong, but I hope ykwim) that you have been taken seriously - seen professionals, who have also seen that maybe all is not quite as it should be in your family.

a dx is the first step.

take a deep breath, now you have something to work with (and very well done on pushing htis far, on not giving up, and dragging it all towards this conclusion - in the face of some pretty awful comments on here, and I am sure, inRL)

I would say to you to definitely look at ABA in depth. I use here for behavioural therapy. dd1 is manipulative in the extreme, and there are certainly elements of ODD about her. Sean Rhodes is excellent, imo, and he has saved us as a family (sounds so fake, to say that, but I have spent many an evening sobbing I can't go on, that I wanted to have dd1 adopted, that maybe she would be happier without me, as her reactions to dh are not as extreme, etc)

stick around in SN - there is no judging here. we have all come across extremes of behaviour, and also extremes of feelings and thoughts, from both sides.

I have just read some of this thread [I don't venture far from sn] and it struck me how divided the posts have been, I think you were right to have it moved because you will get much more help and less stupid critisism on here.
Just for the record I know how it feels to dislike a child Dd1 was impossible when she was younger.
And I know what you are saying about how hard it is when they don't care what sanctions you put in place. Dd1 and Dd3 are like this.
You have to keep going for the sake of your ds and you will, the wheels turn very slowly in the dx process unfortunatly. Keep coming here for advice and support it is a safe place to talk.

Oblomov

You are not the first to admit loving your dh more than your kids nor the first to be pilloried for it. Ayelet Waldman wrote an essay on it and just because you feel that way does not make you maternally ambivalent.
Sounds like you have had the patience of a saint.

Here's the infamous 'controversial' essay from 2005 - it came from a collection of essays, then in guardian, then new york times and the daily mail...have linked to the nyt as the daily hate was full of vitriol.

www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/fashion/27love.html

[chocolate. the strong stuff]

I have a child very much like that and he has ASD to boot, so I totally understand how you feel. I also agree that it's like living with a tyrant, sometimes.

Now you've recognised how you feel, I'm going to suggest that it's never going to turn around until you can find a way to reinforce the fact that, no matter how obstreperous his outbursts and no matter how tired you feel, he is your son and you really do love him. It's going to be almost impossible to improve your relationship and your reaction to each other unless you can do that. I know some of my DS's worst tantrums occur when I'm too drained to help him wind it down and i can't resist getting a dig in. It makes him feel insecure and the behaviour simply and understandably escalates. He calms down and turns his attitude around quickest when I can be calm and almost detached with him and keep my words down to the minimum.

As for the books, 123 magic is supernanny packaged as one size fits all and if you're already doing something like that, and being measured and consistent and calm about it, then it's not going to change anything.

The James Dobson book will keep you warm in winter.

If any books are going to help you, I'm going to suggest looking at the love and logic books. They help put the control back into the child's hands, which is something your child does need. I would also recommend reading Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn. Even if you don't directly implement a word of what he says, it will help you to relate to your son in a different way and put yourself in his shoes a lot more.

And just spotted that this is an old-ish thread, but I'm typed it out, so I'm replying anyhow!

...and we'll try that link again

html no space (cannot paste it on here it comes up with gap each time...)

Oblomov, hang on in there. It is very very hard living with a child that is controlling and ego centric and sees their main carer as their personal robot.
The diagnosis helped me and our relationship because it helped me understand ds behaviour - giving me a handle on modifying it step by tiny step. The early school years were really difficult for me - ds used to come out of school and well target me with the worst! Once he knew I disliked something - he picked on it!!I know now ( he is 10) he loves me but back then he was unable to show love at all. The diagnosis helped ds get the understanding and support at school.

sux2bme, thanks for the article. love
that is how I feel. dh feels the same.

thanks for the comments from hairy, cupoftea, magso, oury, Ineed, and silverfrog (thanks for the link).

I am sure you can appreciate it is alot to take on board, but I thank you for your support.

Oblomov

Glad you moved it here

It is incredibly difficult working through our emotions when our children are challenging.
We think it is exhaustion and frustration but actually there is fear and guilt and denial and all sorts mixed up in there
I had a straight forward time really. Only a few months between realising something was outside of average, and getting severe ASD diadnosis. Yet I still went through terrible emotions trying to get a handle on the way my life, his life, had shifted.

But hang here and talk to us/everyone. I think it gets better once you feel less scared and less alone.
It did for me anyway

Thanks Pag.
Avril, god do I try. I do so much. so many loving things. like sit and watch stuff with him. he gets smart clothes and toys. I listen really carefully and only bought him one nintendo ds game for christmas. only cost £15. but it was the star wars one he wanted. he got 6 other presents from sil's and bil's.
I go to endless trouble for him. I got him into beavers. took 15 phonecalls, 5 e-mails and 3 application forms. but then he wouldn't know that, would he? he's only been going 2 weeks. i haven't said anything to them.
I do all his reading every night with him.
I spend time making a buzz lightyear cake for his birthday. amd i hunted down chocolate moulds from ebay. but then he wouldn't recognise the trouble I had gone to.

KIDS DON'T. DO THEY ?
Both ds's adore dh. whcih makes me so happy. we love cuddles and ruff and tumble. i carry them around on my back, going neeh, neeh. and bounce with them on the bouncy castle. and i ask him what he wants as a special treat. now and then.
and he says he wants curry. so i make him one. and i ask him if he wants to go swimming or church. and he replies church . he is at a catholic school and loves it all.
but none of this stuff makes a difference.
not to children. they don't equate this to my mum and dad do/don't love me. do they ?

I got him into football 2 weeks ago. having done no activities for a year, since swimming, stopped , becasue he wasn't progressing. none of the children were so all parents pulled them out.

but they said that he might not be able to attend. his skills are not good enough. he is totally unco-ordinated, like me. the other boys have been training for 2 years , so have better skills.
But mainly becasue he was rude to the coach.twice. week one. was asked to do something and he said "i won't". made to sit on the side. dh had just nipped to get ds2 who was running around. found him crying. this was before my first hospital visit to paed. we talk to him saying, he must do as the coach says. he says he will.
last week. week 2. second time of being rude. he refuses to put on bib, saying he won't. so coach tells all the boys that they can't now play the game. boys thus hate him. 2 days later i get the odd diagnosis.
I say to dh, shall we tell them ? they might let him play if they know. but now i can't tell them anything, becasue we don't even know if it is odd or aspergers.

does he value the fact i got him into fottball at all. prob not. looks like he may not be there for along anyway !!

Aspergers is notoriously difficult to diagnose, but it really does sound like it to me. The lack of empathy and scorn for any viewpoint other than his own reminds me very much of kids I have met with AS. I think it is almost harder to deal with than classic autism (like my boy) as your boy is totally articulate in his unreasonableness. It must drive u mad because he is unshiftable in his belief that he is right and u r just a foolish woman trying to make him do illogical things. Can u discuss medication for him with the enlightened clinical psych u mention? Even prozac has bn used in tiny doses in the states. Or an aspergers boarding school? And before some of the bleeding heart knobheads on this thread pounce on me for daring to suggest medication rather than praise or cuddles (which u have clearly tried ad nauseam) I really do think someone needs to take notice of how hard things r for u. I tell knobbers like that to come round to mine 4 a few hours, walk a mile in my shoes, b4 suggesting their wishy washy nonsense! You have been worn down and worn out. I hope some of the great advice on here helps. U can probably rediscover your love for him when you get a break from him!

i can understand where you are coming from on so many levels, i have been seeking help for my sons behaviour for the last 5 years- he never grew out of toddler tantrums, he is deaf and has associated anxieties and confidence problems resulting in him 'beating' me both physically and mentally.

i would suggest going back to the gp to get referred to camhs, if your son is not able to 'behave' normally, e.g behavoiur and consequences, then this is the right place to be seen.
when i 1st went to camhs we were given a social worker whom i chose to see once a month, but this could have been more frequent. she gave me strategies and i could go back and say this didnt work- so what next...

then my baby was born so i gave it up, but went back a year later to say my son still had the same anger management issues and horrendous behaviour. so they said oh people who work woth our sw normally get discharged after good results. so we got to see a psychiatrist....this was positive on many levels...however after some more research i found one specialising in deaf children.

please dont give up on your son there is help out there somewhere, if it helps lead them to believe you think he has adhd/ aspergers or traits of it,(i said my son is not just deaf its something else) as it may give the professionals something to focus on in trying to prove you wrong and hopefully give you help along the way.

when i had a paediatrician my gp said this was not the right person as it wasnt about child development.

i also think you should get some counselling, it feels such a relief to say to someone "i hate my son" and not bejudged.

your gp may be more helpful if you explain you are suffering and need them to find the right help for your sons behavior

good luck and take care

Hi. Havent read whole thread, but wanted to try and help.
I have a ds who has ADHD and ASD and also Conduct Disorder. He is 14, so with the condititons he has, and the teenage hormones, he is a lot of the time unbearable. He is rude and verbally abusive and damages his room and things round the house.
Sometimes I find myself thinking I hate him, but, it is not him I hate, but the behaviour, the being pushed to my limit, the emotional roller-coaster that is my daily life.
From your post, it seems to me, your ds may have ODD-the constant arguing,the nothing being right, the punishments not really having much effect. Yes, he may be able to keep it together at school just now, this may change in the future. And, if your mum has been on the receiving end of him also, you should reasure yourself it is not down to you. There is truth in dc like this behaving worse at home, simply cos to them, home is a safe place-noone is judging them.
Some practical steps- or if you like, self-preservation!
(a) Go back to your GP and ask for a second opinion-you are entitled to one. CAMHS would be able to offer Family Therapy-where you, dh and ds could talk about home-life/behaviour/trigger points/positives/negatives etc.(This may help you to sort out your feelings re your ds from your feelings re his behaviour and how it is impacting on you).
(b) DO NOT take what your ds says or does Personally-that is not the same as having no consequences,but if you "let it bounce off you", you will function better emotionally.
(c) Get your mum and dh to help out as much as possible while you are so drained and tired. Can you agree 1 or 2 days or evenings a week where she will have ds? When your dh is at home, can he have ds1 while you have a bath, read, lie down for an hour or so. At weekends, can he take ds1 out while you have a quiet time with ds2?
(d) Look after yourself and try to hang on to all the positives re ds1-however few and far between!
HTH.

thank you expert, jampots and pants.

Update. Just for my own benefit really. maybe it will help ME, to write it down and clarify thoughts.
So I have been off work for 3 weeks now. Was signed off for 2 weeks becasue of unstable diabetes and re-actional stress. was hypo'ing many times per day. my blood sugars were 33.6, then 2.1, many times per day (4-6 is normal).
Clinical pyschologist (seen privately), who suspected aspergers, said his aspergers test was very very low. like 43. score of 80 required for diagnosis. but where he scored very highly, she said he was very very extreme, so this needs examination.

but where does this leave us ? nowhere !!

CAHMS lady came to see me today. she too suspects mild aspergers, mixed with a bit of ODD. she sid he is so bright that this is no surprise. she said its classic aspergers, to be so good as school, then let down barriers at home.
but it can't be AS I said, told her low score on test. she said she was concerned with him wanting to hurt me, and lack of empathy, and was refering us for a Tier 3, CAHMS assessment, as an apsolute priority, so back intot he NHS loop we go, at last.

Assuming this is good ?

She was concerned that he is now plateauing at school and not doing so well. she said he could be struggling more thna they realaise.
she is leaving in 3 weeks time, so might not meet her again. great.

beavers and football club are expressing 'concerns' about him, having started both 4 weeks ago.

sorry. my head is spinning. please calm me down.

My personal counselling with the other clinical pyschologist is going o.k. but he says in order to get my love back for ds1, i need to detach myself. to stop him hurting me.
i questioned this as a long term plan. i've been doing it for 2 weeks. but i told him i wanted my love for ds1 to return.

i just want my love back. i knew it would be hard, but i thought that after a month we would be starting to see a minor minor improvement.

oh and my best friend told me that this was allmy fault because all i'd evr been was no more than a dutiful mum. she says i had attachemnt problems right from the start. dh and my mum say this is rubbish.
i told the clinical what my best friend had said. he said this was "extremely critical and judgemental". he said it was impossible for a neurological condition to be the fault of attachment problems. so it was impossible for it to be my fault and not to blame myself.

CAMHS stuff is definitely step in right direction.

Please ignore ignorant people - CAMHS people know enough to differentiate crap parenting from a genuine problem.

Take care and be kind to yourself - I am a total hypocrite when I say that cos it's so hard to do, but your posts are posts of someone trying her best.

What a great best friend!! My theory is that it is an easy way out for people to blame the mum as a) it means they don't have to face the much harder, intractable problem of your son's behaviour and b) they feel better about not offering any help. Blaming the mum is the coward's way out, a lazy unthinking option. Parents don't cause aspergers or autism - that was ruled out several decades ago. It is a genetic thing, just like having blue eyes. You sound like you are moving in the right direction at least. Even if he scored low on some parts of aspergers, and was high on others, he should be diagnosed as it's a "spikey" disorder.My son is heavily autistic in some areas of autism, but very low on others (eg he couldn't care less about routines). I have started on the tiniest dose of prozac, is that an option for you. I just seems to level things out in my head. x

oblomov ignore your friend. We are going through a bad phase with ds1 and I'm sure there are in laws people judging me for it - I worked when he was a baby, I work now etc etc. Message me if you want - our ds's sound very similar.

Just come across this. You are doing well, Oblomov, coping with this and you must look after your own diabetes too.
Can I enter ashamed whisper mode now? My eldest (now nearly 16) is physically disabled. I never thought I'd have another but 7 years later along came dd. She was perfect. I now had a full set, albeit the older one a bit dodgy. My lord, as soon as that girl could walk and talk everything went downhill. By the time she was 6 I was on antidepressants and having counselling about this terrible relationship we had and this huge resentment I felt towards her because she was so difficult.
She is clever, funny, beautiful, driven, outgoing, confident, so many things. But with me she is stroppy, demanding, rude (sometimes verging on abusive), disobedient, disrespectful. We have a total minefield of a relationship.
I do love her. Actually I adore her but I don't know where she came from and why she's like this. All routes lead nowhere.
We now have a very extreme love/hate relationship. I have had to adjust the thresholds a lot. I have also had to really lay down the law about what constitutes stepping over the line. We have about 3-5 to-dos a day now.
I don't really know where you should go from here. But I know you will keep going because you sound like that sort of Ma. I found wearing her out physically helped. I know you already have organised lots of after school activities. I had to let her do some things I wouldn't ordinarily have allowed her to do, things with extra responsibility, in an effort to show her I did value/trust/respect her input. I stopped short of letting her juggle with knives but she was crossing the road on her own and making cups of tea and coffee fairly early. I also did my level best to refuse to engage - if she would not get out of bed in the morning then she stayed in bed rather than my lifting her, carrying her downstairs and dressing her. When we got to school at nine thirty I would simply tell the truth. I also found that sneaking into her room at night when she was asleep and just sitting near her for a while helped as well.
She will be 9 next month. Yes, this is a very tempestous household but at least she can now make me a cup of coffee when we are winding down after a to-do (I don't know what else to call them but to-dos!)

Thank you for your lovely posts. I feel most supported on MN. So I can't thank you enough. I am sitting here having just had a FREE deep conditioning treatment and blow dry, at my hairdresser. bless him. I look fan-dabby-dozy. so thats a good start.

Thank you revenge and experts. I appreciate thta AS is spikey, so maybe i will push for a 'very very mild dianosis'. or maybe thats unrealistic. I can but try.
Cheers Cornsilk. I will CAT you.
And Springlamb, big thanks for your long honest post.
I can take alot from posts like yours. I think SN MN'ers are so experienced, that they can help me get my love back, probably better than anyone else. becasue of their personal experience.

One step at a time.