Paed says 'nothing i can do' for a willfull ds1(6.8)

[Oblomov]

I had the consultation with Paed yesterday. He is the specialist for ADHD, I had infact seen his book and read about it in he papers. So I knew I was in good hands.
Dh did not attend. what a mistake that was. He was going to, then when I re-read the letter it said about initially weighing and height ds, then 15 mins with dr. so I said to dh maybe not come to this one, seems basic. come to the next.
But there was no next.
we went in and ds1 sat there reading a book. with ds2 in the buggy. I thought this was totally inappropriate to discuss ds1, whilst he was in the room.
I could not speak freely and the school SENCO lady had prviously advised me of not to speak about him in front of him.

Perhaps I should give some history.
Ds1 is 'difficult'. School have no concerns.
He is not different to any of his classmates. They too answer back, interrupt, stroppy etc.
The only difference is that for them it is occasional, just a phase. for ds1 it is constant. he just whinges and wines. answers back. he is so defiant. stubborn.
all punishments and disciplines are non effective. Nintendo ds taken away, no tv, early bed. we have sat down and had meetings. talked about his behaviour.
we ignore. praise the good, ignore the bad. walk away. tried spending more time with him, thinking it was attention seeking. maybe sibling jealousy, because ds2 arrived a month after he started school. but to be honest he has always been quite difficult. just got worse in the last 2 yrs since school started.
the trouble is that none of these punishments seem to bother him. presumably they must. he must just be a very good actor.
of if they bother him; it doesn't seem to make his basic behaviour any better. it seems to be ineffective.
since he started school it has got worse. I mean I?ve always thought that I was loving, firm but fair. I have applied the basic parenting principals since birth.
and the glitch in my armour is that he is very powerful. he knows he makes my life unbearable. his bahaviour i can't stand. he knows this because no matter how much i try and hide it, it is the truth. I am the parent. how did it come to this?
I am happy at work, love dh. love ds2.
His behaviour is not awful. Just irritating and wearing.
He went to stay with my mum for 2 days just before term started. She devoted time to him entirely. And he was still whinging and answering back. She said she was shocked.
I got a bit cross. Thinking, god you only had it for 2 days. He wears me down and down and down, over 5/8 days. Then I snap because I can?t take it anymore.
I just hate him. truly he has worn me down. like living with an abuser I assume. when he does do nice things they just don't wash with me anymore. dh was horrified when I explained that I wish he could be adopted. he said oh you don't mean that. but truly I do. I told my mum the same 6 months ago. I have thought about it for many months. Tried to deny that I don?t love him anymore. Then admitted it. Worked on trying to rebuild my love for him, but so far that has not happened. I just hate him more. Everyone seems appalled by this. By why should you have any undying love for your child? If it my dh treating me like shit, you would all be jumping to tell me to leave him.
I have tried and tried and tried with ds1. I have lots of other pleasures in my life. He is the only real problem.

THIS IS NOT A PHASE.

SO I go to parenting classes. Useless. teach me nothing i didn't already know, wasn't already implementing. I speak to senco woman at school. She is lovely. she has no concerns. Tells me that only a child psychologist can help me. so i go to gp, then get paed appointment.
So off I go to paed appointment yesterday. He says he is wilful. Bright. Recommends 2 books:
The strong willed child by James Dobson
1-2-3 Magic, by Dr Phelan.
Says he will see me in 12 months.
I tell him that I need more. that i need help. That I am disappointed.
I have asked him twice to see a child psychologist as school senco and my mum (who is a sw) had advised me that I need.
I feel dismissed.
But I am desperate. I have gone past breaking point. Now I am numb and desperate.
I feel let down by the paed.
My mum recons that I do really need help. Help to cope. And that my marriage is in jeopardy over the strain.
I agree.

I will read the book, but am I too conceited to assume that they won?t tell me anythitngn I don?t already know ?
Hoping minxofmancunia will come and post. I know that she too comes from a totally loving family, has done all the paretning rules correctly, and yet has a very defiant and willfull dd.

What do I do ?

oh oblomov, it sounds very tough, i'm sorry today didn't give you any answers.

My goodness I didn't spot he recommended a book by James Dobson!!!!
I would go to GP and tell them that and ask for a second opinion. James Dobson is all very well but he is pro-smacking!

Have you tried parentline? I think you could do with some one on one input, and there must be somewhere you can get it.

Good luck!

Oblomov what a terrible cycle you and your boy are caught up in. I really really feel for you (and him). may I ask what his relationship is like with other family members, DS2 your DH etc?

I could have written the OP in the first 4 years of ds's life. Nowadays ds is still difficult to deal with but he is worse at school that at home and I realised again this week that I love listen to him chatter about school in the morning that I really really love him completely.

I had a week away from him because of a funeral a couple of months ago and I really missed him. In the past if I was away for a night or two I can honestly say I didn't miss him much

In retrospect, the thing that really saved us was primarily that ds is an only child and there was no chance of having another child. I realised that ds was my only chance to have a child and if I screwed that up I had no other "easier child" to have a relationship with. That may sound selfish but it is the truth.

I turned it around by tying to (not always succeeding but constantly trying)

1 Act as if I really loved ds, saying it to him a lot, cuddling him a lot etc. Trying to preface any negative comments with I really love you but I don't like it when....." Playing with him for at least 20mins sometimes for an hour or more at weekends (we set a timer) almost every day at things he wanted to play and following his lead (The "Playful Parenting book" was fantastic for this)

2 Reducing the rules we had but sticking to them. Dh and I worked together on that.

3 Using a combination of indirect praise (having ds hear me praise him to other people) and consequences (loss of things he liked). In fact one of the bad signs was that ds hated me praising him directly. He had less trouble with this at school and with his dad. I now realise this was because our relationship was not strong so ds got angry with me if I praised him directly.

4 Keeping him incredibly busy most of the time - dh does a lot of that and they go out a lot at the weekends

This was incredibly hard work and was a real emotional rollercoaster it took about two years in all but we are so much happier at home. Ds is much happier too.

I read a parenting book once (I forget which one -I read so many in my atenpt to improve things!) which said that even the best discipline methods are completely ineffective without first building a strong relationship with your child and it really rang true for me.

Please don't get me wrong it wasn't easy and the playing bit especially didn't always work sometimes ds got angry and the play went wrong or I did. I just kept trying though and didn't give up

Ds can still press all my buttons and always plays me up more than his dad. I have accepted that our relationship will always be more difficult and prickly than ds's relationship with dh but we are fundamentally OK now and I adore ds nowadays faults and all. You can see the difference in that ds can accept praise from me now and is just more relaxed and less anxious at home.

I know that is probably not what he OP wants to hear but it is possible to turn this around but it requires will and so much hard work on behalf of the parent that many people can?t do it. I'm not sure I'd have had the will or the time had I had other children to focus on and to take up my time.
.
Many children have incredibly difficult behaviours and yet they have parents who still love them so I don?t believe that it isn?t possible to love a child who is difficult to manage but sometimes it requires an enormous act of will and of faith. The faith to believe that things can be different Only the OP can know if she has that will and belief.

Am home now. ds2 asleep.
want to thank all posters. think there were some earlier ones that i didn't reply to. always think its polite for op to atleast aknowledge every contribution/post.
Avril, surely the knowledge that you were sent away has damaged you? i want to love ds and for him to feel loved. dh found the idea of adoption abhorrent. and would not consider it. he said that he loved me more than anything. (And I , for those that haven't heard me say this before, over the Mn years) also love dh more than anything. more than my children. i love dh so much. this i know is unusual, because most mums would die for their children. whilst i love mine, i love dh more. i would save dh first in a fire.) anyway, dh said that he has to take care of his boys. he has to. and if i can't. then maybe i should consider leaving. it pained him to say this, but he won't hear of it.
i guess, thus, that even if we had the money for boarding, he would refuse. i guess he believes, its his responsibility. which i guess it is. thats the honourable thing.
my comparisons to being abused by a dp/dh and wanting to leave, don't wash with him. i suspect they wouldn't with many.
lukewarm, thanks for thread link. will read it.

need to go on school run in 20 mins.
need to check out clinic for counselling. think what i have is serious and not normal.
drummer, ds has started football, and beavers this week. stopped swimming 6 months ago.
goes to a lovely catholic school. ethos beautiful. likes rosary prayers. might try taking him to church more. ( not catholic myself, but happy to support).
ladysanders, thats why i thought paed talking infront of him was inappropriate. he is already too powerful and knows that everyone talks about his behaviour.
maybe not talking about it , or to him, could be best. else playing into his hands.
it is basically NEGATIVE ATTENTION, which we all know we are not supposed to encourage. but how do you actually do that ? if it effects you and you need to talk to dh about how the paed appointment went. how can you not talk about it ? sounds easy, but actually not.
Thanks Prune. I do want to get this sorted. I thought i was. but so far the experts are not helping me. will continue.
mrsboogie, i have bupa at work. i would also pay any price for help for him(if he actually really needs it) and also help for me. will consider this. thought i would get this from the nhs to be honest. seems not.
arsenic, how do you cope ?
falling, when you say it stems from his unhappiness and mine, you are of course right. so what is it that i am actually supposed to do ? counselling for him,me, all of us, is on my list of things to look at .

who was it who gave a great link to books/other websites, i need to look at.

sorry i am getting a bit lost in info !!
was it silverfrog ? thnak you. abm, you say. in order to re-gain the power. to get back the power in the parent-child relationship, back to what it should be. i will look into this. thank you.

anyone else i've missed. sorry if i have.

will coem back later. don't really want to go and get ds1, but have to.

imo lots of the experts have raised our expectations about what children should be like and do and made it seem that if we are good parents then our children will be lovely and always well behaved. Thus if they are not then it has to be our fault or they must have some kind of developmental problem or syndrome like ADHD. This doubles the problem that you have if your dc's behaviour does not meet expectations, as your self esteem is then bound up with the behaviour of your child.
would it help to step back a bit. Think of it as a phase that he will grow out of and don't try to change him. Just concentrate on coping on a day to day basis.

Oh and my post was really long but I just wanted to add. A lot of the stuff I mentioned was more about helping me love ds more than about changing ds'd behaviour. In the process ds's behavious has got a bit better but the key thing that has changed is my attitude to him.

I agree that 'the experts' along with tv progs have set up the idea of the perfect parent resulting in the perfect child, and it is just not like that with some children.

For my part, having seen how things went with my brother, Oblomov, I wouldn't recommend moving out. It's a scar that'll never heal for him. It affects how I parent ds, as well (generally, I think, for the better, but there is a LOT of handwringing and guilty comparisons to my mother ).

How about if you treat yourself as a priority, see what options there are for therapy/CBT/whatever, and see what follows from that? It might seem less insurmountable when your own head is a bit clearer. (Sorry, easy to say and hard to do. Can you get DH to help you find someone.)

James Dobson = not good.

You could try what my paediatric nurse friend suggests. You get a star chart and give him ten stars over the day for good behaviour (issue is you may have to really hunt for 10 good things). But you will have given him attention for 10 good things, hopefully it will help him to improve the good behaviour.

Next step is as it becomes easier to find 10 good things, then you raise the level of what is good a bit.

On the other hand you also need some respite, and make this clear to your DH. You need evenings out or whatever, just to recharge your batteries.

also remember that i have to be very careful who i ask for help. I was acussed to abusing my children. refered to ss. mamazon knows the story. this was by a gp who i went to to ask for help with ds1, when ds2 was a baby.
so just remember, asking for help, is not always fruitfull.

It seems to me from what you have said that the nhs won't help because there is no "diagnosis"; there is nothing they can find wrong with him (for all that they have looked) that they can fix.

It also seems to me that while you have tried everything and done all the right things parentingwise there is something broken in the family dynamic that maybe revolves around you and your DS.

He is ok at school - so he is capable of controlling his behaviour. He chooses, whether consciously or unconsciously, to behave "badly" at home.

There is probably a reason for this. And I hope that a clever child psychologist would be able to find out what it is so that you can do something about it.

Another vote for you to research ODD.
Sympathies, I have a 6yo DS who can be rather difficult to like, too.

I have similar issues with my eldest son, taboo feelings of resentment and dislike after years of oppositional behaviour. After a particularly horrid summer holiday, I cracked and went to the GP and requested Family therapy, (as DS1 was being nasty to DS2 who in mildly autistic). DS1 did not really participate (gave every one the silent treatment) but I think having a room full of adults (including dh) all presenting a united front and refusing to be put off by his resistance actually had an effect on him (although not immediately). Two books I recommend are "Don't shoot the Dog" about behavioural training and selected highlights of "How to talk so Kid's Listen etc.", DS doesn't like direct praise or direction but I got the idea for leaving instructions, reminders and praise in the form of friendly notes for him. Its not perfect yet, it never will be, I still find I am harder on him than his brothers eg. when he lost his second gym kit only three weeks into term!, but it is improving. By the way, he is 12.

Don't awkward children just get kicked out of boarding schools?

Oblov.. I take one day at a time.

I ended up going back to the gp after we had been thrown out by camhs the first time.. And I said to the gp.. This is what is happening, it is seriously effecting the family, we can only do o e moment at a time and you are my last hope for help.

I took a list and video of behaviour in to show him.. The only thing different for us was that ds2s behaviour eventually crossed over into school.

I then made a list for camhs of what I wanted to change, why I wanted to change it, what I had already tried and whether or not we had had any success with it.
2 weeks later we were on a multidiscaplin team... And we started getting answers as to why things were happening, idea to try out.. And eventually a dx.

Mine and ds2 relationship is ace now that I understand why.. His behaviour is still a challenge everyday.. But at least we stand shoulder to shoulder on it now.

I don't know the Dobson book at all but am pretty familiar with 1, 2, 3...magic. Phelan's approach is a lot of commonsense and he spends a lot of time talking about removing emotion from behaviour management, instead of "Aaargh, X I can't believe you've done Y again..." you would smply say, "X, that's 1". I taught at a very tricky school for 6 years and in the final two of those e introduced 1, 2, 3...magic as a way of approaching challenging behaviour and it was incredibly successful. It didn't work for all children/miraculously make them all behave but many of the adults reported that it felt them feel better about the particularly challengng children because the adult was 'protected' by using a scripted response.

You're clearly having an awful time at the moment and I'm sorry you're feeling so low. My youngest brother was well-behaved throughout school but an absolute demon child at home; my ultra-calm, social worker mother (who wasn't really a fan of smacking) smacked him far more than she'd care to but his response was simply to laugh in her face and say, "ha ha, that didn't hurt me". He was infuriating and life revolved around what we could/not do with him around. Our parents made sure they took it in turns to take myself and my other brother out for quality time thus also giving youngest brother the opportunity for non-competitive quality time with the other parent. They were advised to send him to boarding school but didn't because they didn't feel it would be in his best interests.

Do have a look at 1, 2, 3...magic as it's very different from a lot of other approaches.

Oblomov I have been thinking of you all the way home so I hope you don't mind me adding my twopenneth worth. I think I am just echoing others further up the thread though.

I have felt like this with DS and I am sure I will do again, but luckily for us it tends to be transient. He can however bring me to the point of lying on my bed, screaming and crying like a baby, whilst thumping my poor old pillow. he is no worse than any other 7 year old; I just can't handle it!It took me ages to realise this, but I have inadvertently labelled DS as a naughty or difficult child. How do you feel when you see his peers exhibiting the same challenging behaviour as your DS?

The parent child relationship does depend to some extent on a "goodness of fit" and is a transactional one, we are all only human after all. Its hard to maintain good feeling towards someone who is just fucking nasty to you a lot of the time!

But, your feelings are affecting your son and will continue to, which is why he is behavibg this way. Its like an incredibly frustrating and damaging (for you both) chicken/egg situation. Your son is probably on the way to becoming a bit of a "self fulfilling prophecy" and you feel shit about yourself because you don't love your little boy.

Even though this situation was not caused by you and you are only 1 agent in it, I think as the adult you can change things, you have the power and ability of insight and self reflection that a little boy of 6 cannot possibly have.

This, coupled with the fact that you face a brick wall when trying to get help for your son, means you are going to have seek it for yourself. you need to get help with processing and changing your feelings, which will help both of you. Then maybe you will be strong enough to tackle his behaviour.

Or even more simply; maybe some kids are just really naughty, but as long as they feel loved I am sure most grow out of it and do not become nasty adults... I dunno?

I have just read my post back and it sounds like I am discounting your Son's bad behaviour and maybe excusing it too much? not my intention I assure you, but it seems like lots of people more knowledgeable than me have those bases covered further up.

Don't forget it is not just me and him that is the problem. he is rude and defiant to dh too. AND he was the same to my mum on his 2 day holiday.
dh won't tolerate nothing. and tells him so.

Greeny, do you know if Dobson actually recommends smacking in THIS book ? my mum has heard of him and says he is very respected. but maybe not all his recommendations ? bit like biddulph, then ?

would give me great satisfaction if he did. i went to ask for help with ds1, when ds2 was 5 mths, and was asked by a new gp, after admitting that i had shouted at him the week before, if i had ever smacked him. i said i had, twice, years,ago. she said "smacking is illegal" and i was refered to ss for "concerns that a child is being abused", on this basis.

was all nonsense. and my dh and my mum were horrified. as it was ss never took it any further. but doesn't negate the fact that a gp accused me.

so if i could go back and quote this. after everything that has happened to me, it might be quite ironic, don't you think ?

still reading other posts , before replying.

wiggly, my mum says i need to ask my gp for family therapy. now that paed has said what he has. my mum says this will aslo help me, and might even get them to give me individual counselling. but my mum says in good family therapy you get a child pyschologist and this could be good for all of us.

I had similar problems with my DS1 when he was very small, and up to the age of about 9. I did love him very much and I am sure you do too, you just feel so fed up that it is difficult to remember how you really feel underneath. I know that this will sound trite, but he will grow up, my son is a delightful, relly delightful 13 year old now, he is clever, doing exceptionally well at a very good school, sociable with peers and with adults, sporty and musical, albeit a messy teenager who sometimes has attitude!! Find something you like/love about your son and focus on it for a while; if the only thing you can find is that he is clever and doing well at school, then dwell on that. When you talk about him, tell people how pleased you are that he is doing so well, not for him, for you!! If you can change the way you see him, the way you relate to him will change itself. Earlyriser also has some good advice. Just try, we are not experts, but have been through similar and come out the other end. Good luck.

No advice to give, but I've really identified with many of the posters here. My relationship with DS (6) is pretty up and down and at times very difficult. If I'm being brutally honest, I don't love him in the same way as his sister. Not sure if I can say that here, but it's true. He's extremely demanding, wilful, stroppy, bright and very sensitive and needs to be occupied 100% of the time. He's also quite lacking in confidence, which I'm really scared is down to me because of our relationship. Things came to a head recently with my and DH wrt to DS and DH said that if I think things are hard now, if DS and I continue as we are, things will be a whole lot worse as he gets older, and I think there's some truth in that. So, I'm trying to turn things round - I do love him and want him and our family to be happy. It's just much harder to achieve that with him than his sister. But I am sure we'll get there and I'm so heartened to hear the posters who've been through this and come out the other end. Thank you.