School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

I am genuinely sorry you feel that way.

All I would say is that I think this whole issue is hugely sensitive but ultimately most people want the best for our young people and those with challenges and disabilities. Very few people want to see young people lead terrible or severely restricted lives. Threads like these will always become a bit of a battleground because there is no consensus in science or society about how best to manage the kinds of issues your daughter faces and SEN and ND as a whole. Realistically the answer is likely to be nuanced and very specific to the individual. This is why the whole ND/NT binary distinction is so unhelpful as it is so easy to pick apart, but this doesn't detract from the very real problems your daughter faces.

It's very hard to have differing views on important issues and show absolute tolerance and tolerance to posters. You will see this on threads about gender identity, religion etc. You may strongly believe that the school must make specific adjustments for your DD but this might not be the best way to tackle the issue. I was persistently late as a teenager too and had real trouble getting to places on time. There was less recognition of SEN in those days and to be honest, I had to find my own ways of managing this to make sure I wasn't stuck in detention everyday. My issue was more around time blindness which is a common ADHD trait. Now as an adult I still utilise the methods I learnt then to try to minimise this trait has on my life. If school had just made allowances then I don't know how I would have developed these techniques. It's all a very grey and complex area but adjustments and allowances aren't appropriate in all cases even when ND is driving the behaviour. It's not bullying or ignorance to suggest this.

Do you know it’s not even about my OP anymore.

This thread is full of appalling Intolerant bullying comments about disabled people in society generally. It’s truly dreadful.

I think if you're going to extrapolate from "non-diagnosed" cases of adhd/asd to make your point then you need to include all those individuals in prison, those who've had mental breakdowns and those that end up as addicts/suicides as well. Far more of them than the people managing fine in jobs w no support.

None of those figures are counted, none of us know what that balance is. The percentage unemployed will be very different for those who have what used to be called Asperger's. It is meaningless to lump every person with an ASD diagnosis in the same analysis.

How would you even begin to understand non diagnosed cases of ADHD/ASD?

It's estimated that at least 3% of people have ASD and 3% have ADHD using current diagnostic criteria however over half of Gen Z identify as being ND. Studies using the Adult ADHD Self Report Scale (ASRS) show that around a quarter of people provide answers that indicate they have ADHD. Whilst I don't think every one of these people would receive a diagnosis, it's interesting that they must identify with some of the ND traits strongly enough to suspect that they might get a diagnosis. This indicates that most people have reasonably significant struggles and challenges in their life associated with ND traits. Clearly there is a huge grey area between people that have very few struggles with ND traits, those that struggle a lot and those that receive a diagnosis. The distinction won't always be clearcut between who does and doesn't get a diagnosis and it is totally possible that someone that doesn't meet the threshold for a diagnosis struggles more than someone that does due to the way the diagnostic process works. It isn't simply a test of how disabling your ND traits are.

Binary definitions help nobody. Most people will need some level of support with an ND trait in their lifetime. Adjustments aren't always the answer. ND traits can impact people differently and can be experienced less severely in some people than others. Every human brain is wired differently, the idea that there is an ND brain isn't true anymore than it is true to say that there is a 'kind' brain.

MN hates people - especially children - not being 'punished' adequately. Many posters have little comprehension that because things don't affect them personally, they can't affect anyone else and hate to see anyone getting something they don't have. They also refuse to believe that 'bucking up' and 'trying harder' just simply don't work for some people in some instances, and they must must MUST be faking it.

That is being beautifully demonstrated on this thread. I'm sorry you've had to wade through it.

I agree with you that your daughter's school are very definitely not helping your child access her learning - refusing to make adjustments for her is actively denying her an education by making her miss lessons. It seems counterproductive to me.

Even those with Asperger Syndrome are significantly less likely to be in full-time employment compared to the rate among disabled people as a whole. For example, one University, Goldsmiths, says best estimates indicate 80% of adults with Asperger Syndrome have been unable to secure long-term employment. Another example, The Foundation for People with Learning Disabilities says only around 15% of adults with Asperger Syndrome are in employment.

The Buckland Review found “Autistic graduates are twice as likely to be unemployed after 15 months as non-disabled graduates, with only 36% finding full-time work in this period.” Now not all of these graduates will have a presentation that would have previously been diagnosed as Asperger Syndrome, but many will.

Someone is, of course, free to not see themselves as disabled, but someone who meets the diagnostic criteria for ASD also meets the legal definition in the Equality Act of having a disability.

I don’t know why some are conflating having a disability with being eligible for disability benefits. One can have a disability as per the legal definition but not be eligible for disability benefits.

Straight from the school of "well were all a bit autistic really" nonsense.

I agree with you that your daughter's school are very definitely not helping your child access her learning
They are not helping with learning because they have become more focused on discipline, the point of the school has changed to crowd control as opposed to education, it's changed just ever so slightly. So slightly that they can't see it, even though it's so painfully obvious to an outsider.

Neurodivergence isn't just autism and/or adhd.

i mean if you want to ignore professional research that graded exposure therapy isn't suitable for sensory processing difficulties knock yourself out. The rest of us will carry on using adjustments and therapies that work to actually help our children manage such situations without traumatising them and causing further MH difficulties. The guilt trippy 'I would do anything', well cool. Those of us that actually spend time researching how best to help our children would do that too, just in an educated way.

You missed this bit.

"I am not talking about children who don't have the capacity for such learning. I am not talking about forcing such training on a child."

I'm quite late to this thread but just wanted to give my experience on this OP. My 15yr old has had a turbulent year 10. We have just got pre-qualifying results back that suggests he has high markers for autism and adhd, and we will proceed with private screening for both asap. He's also been on the SEN register at school for his whole school life and had varying assessments along the way.

I do not expect school to make allowances for him unless documented in his learning passport. I understand that the rules are there for the many and need to be in place. All incidents have been logged and fed back from school in to his pre-qualifying assessments. The only way forward is to work with the school which I have been doing for the last year to build a bigger picture which will help us get more out of year 11. I don't think its enough to have a suspicion, you need feedback from teachers and need to get on board with what you can do.
Does she qualify for extra time in exams, does she need a laptop to work, is it worth assessing her for dyslexia, have you done the pre-qualifying assessments for adhd that will indicate her markers and give school something to work with while you wait for a diagnoses etc... I don't personally blame schools for pushing back a bit if they don't feel enough engagement with parents or understand the bigger picture.

No one with spd would have the capacity for such learning. OPs dd is clearly struggling with sensory processing difficulties in the corridors not 'just' adhd.

I do love a good ' you just need to work with school' post from someone who's clearly never experienced a school that isn't remotely interested in working with parents or students. I feel for you @VividDenimTiger!

Surely OP has things like parents evening, school reports, feedback from tutors and pastoral care, email addresses to teachers which are also touch points in to the school as well as SEN. Even detentions and suspensions require you to speak to school. Or does her school not do any of these?

I have had two kids go through the SEN system at our local comp, and it took a lot more than an email to SEN to get anywhere. OP hasn't actually said what else she has done other than just go straight to senco or try to get her daughter removed from the punishments because she on the waiting list for adhd.

@aCatCalledFawkes everything you mention can be done without the school working with parents, though. And not everything you list happens at other schools.

• Teachers’ email addresses - some schools do not give out teachers’ email addresses, so no, it isn’t a matter of surely OP has them.
• Parents' evening - often 5 mins. Nowhere near enough time for DC with SEN. Doesn’t actually mean the school will work with the parent to provide SEN Support.
• School reports - A report that happens for all pupils doesn’t mean SEN Support is provided.
• Feedback from tutors - not all schools provide this. In some schools, parents' evening doesn’t cover tutors. Even when feedback is given, it doesn’t mean the school is willing to work with the parent around SEN Support.
• Feedback from pastoral care - As above. In some schools, parents' evening doesn’t cover pastoral support. In some schools, SEN reviews don’t happen or don't happen as often as they should. In some schools, the pastoral team doesn't work with all DC with SEN. Even when feedback is given, it doesn’t mean the school is willing to work with the parent around SEN Support.
• Detentions require you to speak to school - not in many schools they don’t. Many schools just send a notification home. I know a couple who don’t even do that unless it is an after-school detention.
• Suspensions require you to speak to school - sadly, it isn’t unheard of for schools not to hold reintegration meetings. Even when they are held, it doesn’t mean a school will be willing to work with parents to put in place SEN Support.

Five minutes in a parents evening is long enough to say you are worried and would like to catch up with the teacher another day. Actually ridiculous to suggest you can't.

I didn’t suggest you can’t say that. But asking doesn’t mean it will happen. In some schools, they wouldn’t speak more another day. Even when they do, it doesn’t mean the school is willing to work with you on SEN Support. Like @RudolphTheReindeer said, it is clear you have never experienced a school who doesn’t want to work with you.

Some people have always been "neuro diverse". In the past they just got on with things for the most part and were able to thrive in life. Nowadays they are told that the world is against them, that everything is unfair, and that employers should make allowances for them. Employers just want to employ someone who can get the job done. So the "neuro-diverse" suffer. But there's a whole industry built up around it full of people getting rich off the back of telling everyone what they want to hear. It stinks really.

Do you know what? I was on the SEN register at school, diagnosed with dyslexia at a time it wasn't recognised in schools and possibly have adhd and autism. I have then taken two kids through the system also on the SEN register. I don't need to validate myself to you. If you want to write down a list of excuses because teachers are so unreasonable carry on.
I have just been on the phone to my oldest friend, a teacher who has four autistic children who pointed out to me that teachers are humans who want a peaceful classroom. I find it really hard to believe every single teacher in your school is unsupportive or won't speak to you. But happy to admit I maybe wrong.

Try reading what is actually posted. I have not written a “a list of excuses because teachers are so unreasonable carry on.” Nowhere have I said “every single teacher in your school is unsupportive or won't speak to you” either. Not all schools are supportive of SEN. Anyone who knows the first thing about the SEN system knows that.

My DC with SEN are actually well supported (Although only one in school now because two of them have now EOTAS/EOTIS.) but I have supported thousands of parents over the years and in some cases, yes, no-one in the school will work with the parents. Sometimes the school won’t even acknowledge the CYP has SEN. My DC being well supported doesn’t mean I don’t understand not all have such a positive experience with their DC’s school.

I'm not sure how that's relevant? She's spoken to school to ask for adjustments and they so no. What else can she do? What possible reason would they have for refusing a child loops to help manage the noise on transition around the school?

I've had mixed experiences with schools. Some have been fine, some great. One which had two of my children was absolutely horrendous. Refused to acknowledge their Sen and refused to implement any support. One was only supported once they moved to high school who immediately applied for an EHCP. The other I ended up at tribunal for refusal to assess for an EHCP. The judge said the LA must assess as it was clear school had not, and had no intention of doing assess, plan, do review.

If SLT/the senco isn't supportive you can have the nicest teachers in the world but their hands will be tied.