School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

Some is not all. The vast majority is not all. The vast majority want to help their child is not the same as all that vast majority are actually able or willing to help their child.

There is no conflict between the statement you are taking exception to and your own response.

Some children who could be better prepared for life in the world they will have to live in are not being better prepared for life in the world they will have to live in. Some, not all, a minority.

That's all I or anyone else is saying.

You are in no position to do so. You don’t have ND children. The same way you have no place to lecture to parents of children with more visible disabilities. You don’t know these children or their disabilities intimately.

And plenty of evidence of schools failing in their duty of care or to provide a suitable education for SEN pupils

You can say some parents are shit without being a parent. Your logic isn't logicing.

If parents of a physically disabled child were not doing physio required, or not trying to get OT support for a wheelchair etc I'd be judging them too. The same way I judge parents of ND children who excuse their actions all the time because "they're ND".

So parents of children with very visible disabilities aren’t allowed to vocalise when their children are unable to do things because of their disability. Wow!

That's not what I said. Yet again your reading comprehension isn't great.

If a parent wasn't even attempting to give a physically disabled child the tools they needed to live well, I'd judge them.

Just like I'd judge a parent who didn't take their child for an eye test knowing they couldn't see.

I don't think that's a controversial take on life but I'm sure you're about to react like I've killed a cat.

You said

“The same way I judge parents of ND children who excuse their actions all the time because "they're ND".

So parents of physically disabled children aren’t allowed to excuse things their children can’t manage.

I don't know much about the Scottish system but it is evident surely that SEND can't be the same as ASN? I would guess ASN includes factors that would come under Pupil Premium in England to get figures so high?

And yes if the government carry on tanking the economy then eventually the majority of children in this country will have the kind of barriers to education that come from being skint 😡

I've not said anything about physically disabled children being unable or able to do things. You're drawing a false equivalence.

SOME parents literally excuse any poor actions and behaviours under the "they can't help it, they're ND". The children can help it, they're choosing not to because they know parents will excuse them. One small example in the park, waiting for the swings. A child and parent come over, go to the front of the queue "X needs to go now, he doesn't know how to wait he's ASD". There were 2 other children with additional needs queuing. They had been taught and modelled that queuing is part of life and sometimes we have to wait for things. Not bulldozered to the front of the queue by a parent.

Why are there so many kids nowadays who have neurodiversity issues? How is OPs daughter going to cope with work, where she can't be late every day or she'll get sacked?

Only 1% of children have autism and only 4% adhd. Some will be the same children.

I’m sure the op’s daughter didn’t chose to have a disability.

“I've not said anything about physically disabled children being unable or able to do things. You're drawing a false equivalence.“

It’s not a false equivalence Disability is disability. Both have the same legal rights.

Why would you assume that she won’t work for herself? Or take flexible employment? Or even have an employer that is disability aware and makes reasonable adjustments?

The difference is because SEN is special educational needs. It is the term used in England and NI. The statistic of 20.8% with SEN (6% EHCP and 14.8% SEN Support) is the statistic for England. Whereas ASN is a Scottish term. Additional Support Needs is a much wider term, encompassing things the English definition of SEN does not. For example, the Scottish definition includes pupils who have EAL. Compared to England where EAL is not a special educational need.

There hasn’t been such a large increase in the rate of SEN in England as some like to portray. In 2010, so before EHCPs, it was 20.9% or 21.1% (depending on which statistics you look at - I think it is a rounding issue adding up SA, SA+ and SSEN). In 2005, it was 18%. Going back several decades to the Warnock report in 1978, “some 20% appeared to need some form of special educational help. This may even be an underestimate…”

Legal rights when the issue is actually due to the disability.

You don't get legal rights to behave and do what you like because you're ND.

Nobody has said you can.

ND is a disability

Your legal rights include reasonable adjustments to enable you to access the same things as non disabled people

Ie lifts/ramps for wheelchair users
Brail for blind people
Interpreters for deaf people
Extra time for exams
Adjustments such as working from home, ear defenders
Uniform variation

For many ND the adaptions they need to access school are because of the environment. Work environments do not often mimic school enviroment - so they don't needs the same adjustments to work that they would need in school

However. The failure of schools.often means their mental health deteriorated through school system and the have missed education through poor support in education

I just wanted to come on here to say thanks to the people on this thread who have understood neurodiversity and disability and how difficult it is to navigate the education system and have really made nice positive and helpful supportive suggestions.

To the rest who have said some truly horrible hideous bullying nasty things about a child, you are the absolute worst examples of a society that seems to be going backwards rapidly in it’s understanding of disability, equality and discrimination. Shame on you all.

If a child needs support, which your school clearly does, they do NOT have to have a diagnosis to get that support.

ND is a disability!

Not one that means all behaviour is excused though.

Sadly the "invisible" nature of ND means SOME parents do use the diagnosis to take the piss.

It does mean that behaviour which is the result of the disability must be excused, otherwise the school is punishing the child for the crime of being disabled.

ND conditions aren’t invisible but are sometimes hidden. Hidden disabilities are physical, mental, or neurological condition that are not immediately obvious to others but significantly impact a person's daily life. They are conditions that defy traditional stereotypes of what a disabled person looks like, which can lead to misunderstandings or challenges accessing necessary support.

You are on very dangerous ground accusing parents of hidden physical, mental or neurological conditions of taking the piss. It is hugely difficult getting the support these children are entitled and need, taking the piss all too often means managing the ignorance of others which is very much in evidence on this thread.

This isn't strictly true.

ND is just an umbrella term for groups of traits that combine together to form certain recognised ND conditions. These very same traits are prevalent across the general population and it is totally possible that a so called NT person can have stronger specific ND traits than someone with an ND diagnosis that is considered disabled.

My point is, ND traits will exist in virtually all of us. It's often the parts of us that we find difficult to manage and have to make a conscious decision to control in the society we live in. The idea that humans exist in some binary way where NT people are expected to manage themselves and their ND traits but someone that qualifies for an ND diagnosis doesn't is very dangerous. There is so much we still don't know about ND and the brain. We have no real idea if our current ND/NT arbitrary groupings and thresholds are accurate or even appropriate. What we do know is that we wouldn't function at all as a society if none of us actively managed our ND traits and simply looked to have all our behaviour excused when it was influenced by our ND traits.

What a pile of crap.

There is nothing "dangerous" about terrified child not being forced into an overcrowded, noisy corridor which is actually what this thread is about.