EHCP support thread no. 5

[Needlenardlenoo]

Another thread is nearly filled so here is a new one for when we need it. I am the original OP but have name-changed due to admin (let's call it spring cleaning). We got our EHCP finally in June last year and are in a state of cautious optimism two terms into the year 7 transition. There has been no contact from the LA at all to us, but perhaps no news is good news, sometimes. The next challenge is going to be the annual review. I am feeling a bit paranoid the LA might try a cease to maintain. Anyway, onwards and upwards and best wishes to all!

Here are links to previous threads:
EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread
EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2
EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3
EHCP support thread no. 4 -
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4

Thanks - the school have been quite overt with their concerns and I do agree. DS really struggled with the in person element on his trial - my hope was that they would agree to take it slowly but I think that combined with some of the training/support in the EHCP means they don’t feel they can meet his needs.

given this just happened today is it worth going back to the caseworker and suggesting EOTAS or are we too late?

Yes, you can go back to them CW now if it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school.

Hi all, I was here under another name but had some phone issues and just couldn't get my old name back! I used to be Ican'tpeopleanymore...

We had success just before Christmas, the LA approved funding for provision that DD had shown a mild interest in she didn't say no at least but I tried to get one off the ground this week and it was an epic fail. She's then flat refused the other.

I just feel like giving up. She's got online school, 3 IGCSE, she's doing that. She's on a screen most of the rest of the time, then I get her out to do stuff once a week, guitar lesson and dog walk.

I can't keep suggesting or trying to find things for her. She's either not bothered, or too scared, or it's PDA kicking in. I don't know.

Got to spend tonight emailing providers to say sorry, no go. Not yet at least.

Appeal is still in, although I've had another EHCP since then. No idea what to do about that.

They've given more funding, but it's still written for school. If I go back to them because she's found something she wants to do, I don't know how long it would take to get funding/providers changed and if the EHCP bring written differently will make any difference anyway.

If she can't engage with anything other than 9 hours a week of online lessons then what's the point?

Annual review in March, will see what happens I guess.

That doesn't sound too bad - she's doing some learning, leaving the house, music, a bit of exercise? Do you feel it needs to be 5 GCSE?

@Theghostofchristmasarse IIRC DD is in Y11. You should have had a phase transfer review by now. A March review is too late. You should chase the LA now.

I wouldn’t worry yet. It is very early days in terms of EOTAS/EOTIS. 3 GCSEs, a guitar lesson and a trip out is a good start. It isn’t uncommon for DC to need to build up more slowly. I would look to add in therapies even if it needs to be indirect provision only for now.

Have you requested an expedited hearing?

There is some inconsistency as to how this is handled at the moment. The preference is for LAs not to issue a finalised amended EHCP but for the amendments to feed into the WD process. If an amended EHCP is finalised, sometimes SENDIST is making some who have amended versions submit fresh appeals because it supersedes the EHCP subject to appeal. Most of the time these are then consolidated but not always. Yet other times, SENDIST is allowing the exact same circumstances to be incorporated as part of the existing without a fresh appeal being submitted. If an amended EHCP has been finalised, submit a SEND7.

It isn't too bad, and it's so much better than it was...but she's alone for three full days a week whilst I work, she's getting bored in the week off (they do three weeks on, one week off, December and August off entirely)..no friends and no outside contact at all apart from her guitar teacher, no other learning. She finished gcses in June 2027, I just have no idea what she's going to do after that. Nothing probably. Just really would like her to have something else, the two provisions I found were an animal care course with mentoring, and game changers, so just parallel play. I just want her to have something to help her see what she could do in the future, as she has no idea and I think us actually quite scared about what's going to happen after GCSEs are finished.

Also concerned that they might try to take away what she has if the EHCP isn't written properly.

I guess I should just be grateful she's doing something.

@thatsnotmygarden Yes, she is in year 11. 16 in April.
I questioned the phase transfer review, they said because she's not in cohort, that it'll be in March as an annual review and they're not looking to change the online school provision. Flat refused to do a phase transfer review.

The EHCP was only finalized last week, so I'll email sendist and submit the send 7.

I just don't know if it's worth it just to get wording changed. It's all written for school, but she has the provisions (in theory) to meet the needs. They provided something for PfA, sort of, (virtual careers visits) but she won't do it. Nothing written in that section at all. Nothing in health either.

Is it worth the stress to get it written correctly? I guess without it being specific to the current situation it risks EOTIS being taken away at annual review?

If DD is Y11 and the LA has refused to hold a phase transfer review, you can force them to, including via JR if necessary.

DD doing the first year of GCSEs doesn’t automatically mean she is educated out of chronological year group. With EHCPs, many do them later than normal. Being educated outside of the chronological year group can be included in F, but SENDIST sometimes refuses to include this for those with EOTAS/EOTIS because it doesn’t really matter since the package is bespoke.

I wouldn’t expect DD to be able to manage the careers advisor at this point. The package needs building up more slowly. DD needs more therapeutic support first. Then it needs to start being about building a relationship with the carers advisor (hopefully a SEN specialist? Would F2F be better?) rather than jumping in with carers advisor sessions.

Personally, I think it is worth it. The LA does not have to provide anything that is not detailed, specified and quantified in F (or anything to facilitate the provision of that). This is even more important at DD’s age because in a few months you won’t even have s19 provision to fall back on. It won’t just be amending the school based wording. There will be other things that need to be amended in B&F and C&G. This won’t just be for things like direct provision, but for professional time, which is critical to things like ARs and co-ordination of the package.

While there is some protection under section 49 of the Children and Families Act 2014 for those who have DPs even when the provision isn’t detailed, specified and quantified in F in that provision acquired via DPs is to be treated as having been secured by the LA in pursuance of its duty under s42(2) and where the LA decides to reduce this, they must provide reasons and give reasonable notice it is much more enforceable if it is in F.

Ok thanks, that helps.

She won't engage with anyone at the moment, therapy was meant to be the game changers mentoring but that's fallen flat. Therapy currently is me not pushing anything and watching traitors..

They haven't actually provided any careers advice, just that one of the provisions you suggested was SenShine tutoring, she does a life skills course with virtual visits, some careers based. So I've snuck it in by the back door.

So I'm appealing for all the wording, and for health, and PfA.

Plus putting in a send 7 and pushing them to do a phase transfer review asap.

Ok, I'll start sorting that this week I guess!

Please advise -

I have made contact with a few services - including a legal advocate.

School leading on an EHCP. Child diagnosed autistic/ADHD. I have physical health conditions so have voluntarily not been primary carer since secondary school -18 months ago.

I have a detailed parental statement and copies of assessment reports.

Unfortunately, my ex has since a long time ago now occasionally dropped in accusations to me of mental illness and emotional abuse. The most recent email states he has enough information now and has a strong case re me being emotionally abusive. I'm sure it won't surprise anyone if I tell you I am the one being emotionally abused. My son is Autistic/ PDA and is now beyond my will to deal with. He is both being manipulated against me and is himself being manipulative.

I agreed to submit detailed parental statement to help the EHCP application imminently. I cannot happily do this now. I have been forewarned by a professional that it does look like an FII set up could be in motion. My ex, with a strong family history of autism has consistently shown resistance to the obvious reality my son is himself ND. Suggestions I have some type of Munchausen condition have been coming via my son since I pursued the autism assessment when he was 8.

I have told my son he can't come to see me at the moment based on this situation. I believe he needs to be aware of the severity of what he is himself choosing to do - manipulated or not.

I need to hold school off as I await detailed legal advice. My son will no doubt act out. I am conscious every single thing I say may be used against me. I want school to be aware what's going on. I know my son will face the repercussions of all this. He's a teenager, autistic and will of course take full blame.

Can you advise. Emailing school to explain there's a delay and covering myself in the short term of any more being said is my priority for the next 7 days .....

@Theghostofchristmasarse indirect provision doesn’t require DD to be able to engage.

Careers advisor input can be part of EOTAS/EOTIS packages. Carers advisors don’t only look at careers. They can help with next steps in education too.

@SENhelp50 it is incredibly difficult to advise on potential FII or PP cases over a forum. You need someone who can see all the information, evidence, etc. I would get in contact with Cerebra’s LEAP service, read some of Luke Clements’ work and read the Working Together to Safeguard Children guidance if you haven’t already.

Make sure you follow up verbal conversations with emails.

You don’t necessarily need the school to hold off requesting an EHCNA. If the school is willing to do that, they must think the legal threshold is met.

Hi, We have tribunal for a special school in a year, LA are refusing as there isn't enough evidence and the description on the EHCP paperwork does not match the reality of what school, experts, parents are describing.
I did read yesterday that the ehcp should contain 'no specific incidents or examples'
So how do you get over the seriousness of the incidents in the EHCP if you can't give examples. It could be a punch in the face, a slap across the face, multiple punches or kicks to a pupil in the stomach (not completely real) but that sounds serious, it has weight. Then the LA reduce it to 'can lash out, can hit other pupils or staff, shout, scream or throw things. Now there is a big difference between lashing out and tapping someone on the arm, to really punching with anger and force. How do you word this in the EHCP?

As it is true, reading the EHCP isn't serious enough. Every time I have tried to change it, they say it is already stated. Child got a suspension a few months ago, so it really isn't reflecting him. And I have pushed to get an emergency review as it needs to be honest. How do I go about this, how should it be worded or is it all about the evidence?
We have another expert consultation coming up and are hoping to get a private EP out to the school (last seen at home) soon for a report before the final evidence date for the tribunal. Thank you !!

@Bitstuck1 the content of the EHCP is based on the evidence. This is why evidence is so important. If the evidence on paper doesn’t match the reality of the child and their needs, then the EHCP isn’t going to match reality either. The EHCP needs to accurately describe needs and the provision required. Any proposed amendments need to be rooted in the evidence. Your situation is also why it is important to appeal B&F as well as I. Section I is the logical conclusion of B&F. B + F = I.

You will need evidence for it but you could propose an amendment to something like “X is increasing experiencing overwhelm and emotional dysregulation. This manifests itself verbally and physical. X can be volatile and explosive. This can lead to X lashing out, hitting other pupils or staff, shouting, screaming &/or throwing things (you can also insert other behaviours here if relevant e.g. swearing, kicking, biting, hair-pulling, head-butting, head-banging) on a daily (or whatever frequency is relevant) basis during which he can injure himself or others.” You can then go on to say, “Following these instances, DS experiences [exhaustion, remorse, anxiety, shame] (insert whatever is appropriate).” Obviously delete anything that isn’t relevant to DS.

Alternatively, although not everyone likes the VCB phrasing, you could pre-fix the existing sentence with ‘X displays violent and challenging behaviour (if he does, obviously). He can…’ VCB wouldn’t be used to describe someone who taps others. Having said that, the sentence you say is in the EHCP is unlikely to be used for DC who taps others. The level of provision will also vary depending on the needs described.

The write the last two paragraphs with the caveat that I haven’t seen the evidence or DS so may not be appropriate for DS.

Risk assessments, safety plans and trauma informed PBS plans can form part of the evidence and be listed in K. Do you have any of those? If not, you should so speak to the school. Trauma informed PBS plans aren’t (or at least shouldn’t if written correctly) anything like the PBS plans of old, which aren't ND-affirming, that spring to mind for most when someone says PBS.

You can propose amendments via the WD process. You don’t need the LA to agree to your proposed amendments before proposing them in the WD (or at all).

You could use the WD process instead of having an early review. If you want one an early review, you can use IPSEA’s model letter. Although the LA doesn’t have to agree to hold one. Even for an early review, you will still need evidence to support amendments. The review should feed into the WD process.

Great thanks, I will take that to the meeting and get it reworded with the Senco.

I have emailed the Senco about the risk assessment, safety plan and PBS plan. I don't know if DS has those reports or not, but I checked and they are definitely not listed in Section K. I will get those added to the evidence. Thanks so much!

You will need evidence to propose amendments. You won’t just be able to reword it with the school’s SENCO. BTW be careful relying on the SENCO. Not all SENCOs understand SEN law.

Apologies for all the SPAG errors in my pp . I won’t bother correcting them all but it should say ‘verbally and physically’. Not physical.

We are asking to do a new review because of a suspension, then also because of the final evidence date for tribunal, we will also have a new assessment report from a professional and hopefully should be getting a private EP assessment at school (the last one was at our home) plus the evidence you suggested from school.
So quite alot to add into the EHCP.
The bit to be reworded is the agression, violence part you mentioned.
Im trying to go through all the report the tribunal officer sent as to why the change of school is being opposed and fill in all the gaps with evidence before the final evidence date.
That's the difficulty, the SEN law, as i havent a clue. Hopefully if we get the evidence and get the missing bits in the EHCP then hope for the best.
The school picked by us is also going to visit ds at school to give their view in the evidence, so hopefully their word on it will be significant. They said the ehcp doesnt read as him needing SS but others views, school, professionals, family definitely do.
Thanks again.

Sorry, just a quick question
The asd assessment says something like, asd with demand avoidance behaviour or something similar.
The EHCP just says ASD.
Can I add the other bit? Obviously not allowed a diagnosis of PDA, but those extra words make a difference on the way a child presents and their behaviour on being told to do something.
Can I legally add it, are the LA ignoring that bit for a reason.
The EP originally said at 4, 'should be able to cope with the demands of school' if not a SS should be considered. Then he has been diagnosed with strong demand avoidance, so can't cope at school.
EP is coming out again at school this time.

Hello,

When my daughters EHCP review came round we asked the SEN Coordinator (LA) to add in specifics, specified and quantified. They completely ignored this and what I had put in my feedback on the EHCP and issued it any way.

Is this something that they're allowed to do?

@Bitstuck1 you can propose an amendment to include the demand avoidance element as a description of SEN in B. I wouldn’t call it a diagnosis, though. Some LAs can be funny about that because it isn’t a diagnosis in that it isn’t it isn’t in the DSM/ICD.

@JemJam1 EHCPs should be detailed, specified and quantified. However, many are not. The LA doesn’t have to agree to all your proposed amendments. Since the EHCP has been finalised, you have the right of appeal to appeal if you want. That is the route to ensuring the EHCP is detailed, specified and quantified.

Hi i am in need of some advice my 3year old goes to a private nursery has a few agencys involved suspected dd and autism nursery agree a ehcp is needed but has been advised by one of the agencies to not start a ehcp because i was thinking about moving him to a school nursery it only can be started if he stays at present nursery is this right or is there some logic to this as i thought it would make sense present nursery start it as he would of been there 2years by the time he accesses a school nursery in sept 2026. I am really confused can anyone explain if this is good advice, i would request a ehcp myself but i dont want to be rejected and then i dont get the support from the agencys involved.any advice would be appreciated

@Julylily1982 the agency has given the nursery/you incorrect information. You can request an EHCNA and move setting.

However, be aware LAs will sometimes use recent moves as an unlawful reason to refuse to assess or refuse to issue because they say DC needs time to settle first.

Personally, I would just make the request yourself now. If you have several agencies involved, you will have or be able to get enough evidence to meet the threshold for an EHCNA.

thatsnotmygarden thank you that could explain why they said to delay thank ypu for explaining that sometimes they dont explain it fully and just leave you with more questions thank you. 😊

Phew, EHCP finally issued (just over two years after the school applied for it and three years since they started to gather the evidence). I’m broadly happy with the contents and the level of support that the school are providing. As my dc is now in year 10, I am thinking ahead to reviews and transition to post 16 education. One of my priorities will be ensuring that the EHCP remains in place for the transition and beyond. What should I be doing in terms of ensuring that the school are delivering the EHCP, documenting evidence of need etc? I have heard that annual reviews rarely happen on time, and the school SEN dept seems a bit overwhelmed and not always on top of paperwork. Should I be asking for regular (termly?) meetings? Should the school be regularly updating any paperwork ? I’ve been so focused on getting the EHCP in the first place, and learnt that nothing happens without me pushing, so I am keen to stay on the case now! Thanks

@BananaPie the amended EHCP for the post 16 phase transfer must be finalised by the 31st March of Y11. In order to do this, a phase transfer review meeting must be held in the autumn term of Y11 (or failing that at the very beginning of January). Start considering options now, making sure your evidence is lined up.

You can request a meeting or conversation to discuss the implementation of the provision. Realistically, it will take a few weeks for the bulk of provision to be in place. Are termly meetings in the EHCP? If not, although regular meetings for DC with SEN are best practice, many schools wouldn’t be able to commit to termly. The school should have things like a provision map for DS.

Thanks @thatsnotmygarden really helpful information. I wasn’t aware of the phase transfer review timelines