EHCP support thread no. 5

[Needlenardlenoo]

Another thread is nearly filled so here is a new one for when we need it. I am the original OP but have name-changed due to admin (let's call it spring cleaning). We got our EHCP finally in June last year and are in a state of cautious optimism two terms into the year 7 transition. There has been no contact from the LA at all to us, but perhaps no news is good news, sometimes. The next challenge is going to be the annual review. I am feeling a bit paranoid the LA might try a cease to maintain. Anyway, onwards and upwards and best wishes to all!

Here are links to previous threads:
EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread
EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2
EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3
EHCP support thread no. 4 -
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4

Our final evidence deadline for refusal to issue appeal for DD is looming (27 Jan) 😬.

I've seen something recently about SENDIST changes to evidence criteria, for example professional reports being limited to 15 pages each?

Would anyone be able to set out exactly what the changes are?

I've submitted a couple of SEND7s to SENDIST - the first on 12 December requesting a direction to the LA to seek SALT and clinical psychology assessments and one yesterday requesting an extension for one piece of evidence (private EP report as assessment is not until beginning of April).

Not heard back yet from SENDIST re the first one - the form states that they hope to provide a response within 15 working days. What sort of timescale can be reasonably expected and do they always respond, even if they don't accept the request?

In addition to the EP report, the other evidence I am planning (or considering) to send is:

Private OT report (the OT had hoped to send it to me before Christmas, but not received yet so getting a bit anxious! She is usually very reliable so I'm sure it will be fine.)

Referral from GP to CAMHS, plus letter stating she has been accepted post triage onto waiting list.

Correspondence with school SENCO and school trust attendance consultant regarding DD's need for play therapy and the various reasons excuses over past couple of years why she still hasn't received it (indefinite waiting list, one currently not in place, receiving external provision - which she has now finished with, needing a break between the two... Need to find out what the latest reason is).

Statement from us, including diary summary

Do those sound appropriate?

DD was also diagnosed with 'moderate-severe' ADHD (in addition to previous ASD diagnosis and significant sensory modulation challenges) at the end of November. Not received the report yet - is it worth also submitting this as evidence (will also likely need to be submitted as late evidence)?

The new practice directions are here. They were introduced several months ago.

Don’t worry if your OT report (and ADHD report if you send that) arrives after the date. You can request late evidence is admitted for these too.

Definitely send the OT report and a position statement from you. Although not sure what you mean by diary summary exactly, diary of what? This may not be helpful.

Without seeing your other evidence and the referral and post triage letter, school correspondence and ADHD report, it is difficult to say how helpful they will be. Sometimes they will be more helpful than others.It may be you should send all or only some. Some referrals, post triage letters and ADHD reports will a) be brief, b) poor, and/or c) not written with an EHCP in mind, so will have unenforceable language and won't cover needs/provision/outcomes. It is possible the correspondence is more helpful. Does it state DD’s needs and the provision she requires?

Remember your page limit.

SEND7 timescales see how long is a piece of string. It is common for them to take longer than 15 days in the current climate. Particularly when the HD isn’t imminent. I would give it longer before chasing, especially because of the Christmas period.

Hey @Ponche I don’t mind at all but do you want to DM me - I have quite a lot of thoughts on it! It was expensive and TBH I’m not sure I’d go for it again in my specific circumstances. Happy to say more privately.

@thatsnotmygarden Thank you as ever.

I have actually now heard back from the OT and she should be able to get me the report by the end of next week (had some personal circumstances).

So the diary was to show the evidence of the extent of DD's masking at school. (Although this will also be covered by professional reports).

With regards to the position statement, I would say we are in a better position than last academic year (and even compared to when I set out my original appeal) with regards to DD's EBSA. Is it shooting ourselves in the foot to admit that there has been an improvement? Her attendance has improved from 72% last year to 90% so far this year. She is also feeling more positive about school in general; I would say that this is predominantly down to the effort her teachers have made this year in nurturing a trusting relationship with her and their experience and knowledge. I can guarantee that without this, we would not be in this position. She is currently year 5, so there is also a concern about how she will cope at secondary school. (The OT actually suggested we think about the possibility of special schools).

We still have big meltdowns outside of school, she is still late most mornings as is not able to attend until 'issues' have been resolved (clothing, a 'stomachache', she is currently still at home today as she has been picking her lip and won't go in until it 'stops bleeding'), she won't attend forest school (so is at home for half a day every fortnight as the only alternative offered by school is to sit in the other year 5 class), won't attend if there is going to be a substitute teacher, etc.

Is it worth also saying that some of the interventions on her provision plan are ad-hoc/not in place? One of the things is maths pre-teaching (not currently in place).

I think my thinking with the CAMHS referral (which I need to get a copy of, but think it covers the concerns we spoke to GP about - her general anxiety and how it affects her life, potential OCD tendencies) was that it shows the need (not really covered by anything else)?

The correspondence with school was not really that specific (the ex-SENCO was particularly good at not giving too much away in written evidence). But for example, when I asked whether school play therapy would be helpful for DD, she agreed. The Trust attendance consultant also listed an action point for DD to be bumped up the play therapy waiting list.

Thank you, will do. Was cognisant of Christmas, just wondering whether it was the case that they always did reply (too used to the LA!). Will give it a couple more weeks.

We still have big meltdowns outside of school, she is still late most mornings as is not able to attend until 'issues' have been resolved (clothing, a 'stomachache', she is currently still at home today as she has been picking her lip and won't go in until it 'stops bleeding'), she won't attend forest school (so is at home for half a day every fortnight as the only alternative offered by school is to sit in the other year 5 class), won't attend if there is going to be a substitute teacher, etc.

Read ^this paragraph back. It doesn’t actually sound like there has been an improvement other than the attendance %, which is only part of the picture. All the above is part of the picture. You can include all this in your statement. I wouldn’t specifically mention the increase in attendance unless to say attendance has increased because of XYX demonstrating they are required. Plus 90% still isn’t full time. The LA may well submit an up to date attendance record, anyway.

You can mention some of the provisions reasonably required aren’t being delivered/delivered as they should be and that is why they need to be detailed, specified and quantified in F.

If the level of anxiety isn’t covered by other evidence (do your professional reports not cover anxiety even if they aren’t as detailed as e.g. a psychiatrist or CP because that would be outside of an EP or OT’s remit?) send what you have from CAMHS. However, it is highly unlikely to cover needs, provision and outcomes correctly.

You can send the school correspondence, but be mindful 'would be helpful' wording isn’t strong enough wording to be enforceable. I would re-read the correspondence to decide which to send.

Sometimes RfCs slip through the net and need parents to chase. They don’t always reply, even when a reply is needed.

@thatsnotmygarden Thank you again, that's really really helpful.

Things are definitely far from perfect, but I would say that there has been an improvement in DD's feelings about school. There's things she now likes and looks forward to about it. We had consecutive days last year when we couldn't get her in at all and couldn't imagine how we would ever get her back in; this year her only consecutive absence was three days in the second week at the start of the year.

Last academic year, she was just a complete shadow of herself. She does still have big meltdowns, but last year they were catastrophic. She often couldn't even bear for anyone to sit in the same room as her, it was nearly impossible to get her to do anything, she didn't go to her swimming lessons (which she really enjoys) for four months, she developed a vocal tic, she often couldn't wear clothes. When I spoke to the EP who will do the assessment in April, he suggested she was probably in burn out then. So she's probably not currently.

I think the main thing that has helped get her to the point she is at now is her teachers (job-share; they're both assistant heads so very experienced).

I have actually coincidentally just had a message from CAMHS and we have a mental health assessment at the beginning of February. So possibly something as a result of that? If she is given therapeutic intervention from them, does that stay separate from an EHCP?

I imagine the OT report will mention anxiety (the one from a couple of years ago did). And I did talk to the OT about my concerns (as some of them seem to border on sensory/routine/OCD tendencies). But obviously not 100% her remit.

Thank you, will give them a chase in a week or two.

You can mention some of the provisions reasonably required aren’t being delivered/delivered as they should be and that is why they need to be detailed, specified and quantified in F.

Also listed on her provision plan is a small-group 'Talkabout' intervention. She had this for two weeks in September, but then the TA running it was needed elsewhere. It's only just started up again because the school has a social work student on placement, who is running it. She's due to finish in May, so imagine the group will stop again then. She also saw a therapy dog weekly at the school last year, but the school no longer have that provision so it's just been crossed off her plan.

So in my current position statement draft when I talk about 'improvement', I have put:

"I believe that this is predominantly because of the sustained effort her class teachers have made this year in nurturing a trusted relationship with her in addition to their knowledge and experience. This was not the case last year and there is no guarantee that this will be the case in the future. I consider that this will be a particular concern with the move to secondary school.

However, despite this outward improvement, there is still evidence that her needs are not being met from within local provision."

Even if CAMHS provide therapeutic input, it still needs to be in the EHCP. Therapies etc. still need to be in F because CAMHS support is often time limited. It may also be less frequent or shorter sessions than an EHCP could provide. The other thing is the EHCP can provide provision not available via CAMHS. More general support, e.g. psychiatric reviews should go in G. I don’t know if you have an extended appeal or not.

Sorry, I put EP report then realised you haven’t had the assessment yet.

@thatsnotmygarden Thank you 🙂

Jumping in for some advice please. DS14 has just had his AR. I asked specifically for MH (CBT) to be added in to his plan at AR because I cannot keep leaving my job to facilitate his attendance at school.

DS14 was discussed at the MH clinic multi team meeting and it was agreed he was a candidate for CBT so they added him to a waiting list.

I got a phone call yesterday from our council officer to say she was finalising his plan and will put a note on to say he’s on an 18 month waiting list for CBT!! I will lose my job in 2 months never mind 18 if we have to keep going on like this.

I spoke to an independent service who said that this is entirely reasonable and allowed. Is that it then?! We just wait and wait . In that case there’s no point in his ehcp because it’s all based around his MH (yet is very little in it).

@MiddleMane was the ‘independent’ service SENDIASS? If so, be careful. While some are good, too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies. They are not truly independent. They receiving LA funding so many will toe the party line.

If the amendments are about to be finalised, you should have been given the opportunity to make representations on the proposed amendments. Were you? This is where you need to propose amendments referencing your evidence.

Therapies can be included in F of the EHCP. If CBT is reasonably required, it needs to be in F. That is reasonable. However, you need evidence because the content of EHCPs is based on evidence. What evidence do you have? It sounds like your evidence is lacking, which is the problem. If you don’t have the evidence, it won’t be included. Evidence from CAMHS is often not written in the correct way. Often it doesn’t detail needs, provision and outcomes and the provision is rarely detailed, specified and quantified in the right way.

Once the amended EHCP is finalised, you will be able to appeal. An appeal won’t be heard in the next couple of months though.

@thatsnotmygarden yes it was IAS. I will be careful of asking them in future.

Yes I had 15 days to request amendments, in which I asked them to add in the CBT from the reports. The MH team reports were rubbish and just confirmed the referral for CBT. However, DS also sees another MH provider who diagnosed him with OCD; he provided me with a report explaining that DS needs CBT to support school attendance and that it needs to be ongoing as DS has severe OCD.

So the case officer is aware that there is a need there but refused to put any of this in his plan let alone aid provision. I guess my only option is to appeal but I know that is going to be a long way away.

Appeal and look at your evidence carefully. It needs to be detailed, specified and quantified, e.g. who, what, when, frequency, length of sessions… It isn’t enough to just say DS needs CBT. Does the provider DS has been seeing have experience of writing medico-legal reports for SENDIST?

Be aware often CAMHS won’t continue treatment if DC are receiving care with another provider.

@thatsnotmygarden Yes I think I’m going to need more evidence, possibly independent.
The report I have specifies CBT, ongoing, delivered at school for 45 minute blocks with X, delivered flexibly according to DS needs. This is right for DS as he cannot always access the sessions because of his OCD. Eg, recently he was unable to leave the SEN base to attend a session because he needed to constantly touch the tiles on the wall, he was becoming so distressed that it was decided that the CBT should be cancelled to allow his key worker to calm him. So the sessions have to adapt around his needs.

I did not know that about the MH team (I’m sure it much be camhs in this area too). How many sessions is he likely to be offered? There’s no way he can be cured in a few weeks.

@MiddleMane some are offered as little as 6-8 sessions via CAMHS. This is why it is it important to secure it in F of the EHCP. The EHCP is the route to secure provision in excess of what is typically available via the NHS. What is included in the EHCP depends on the evidence. There isn’t a set amount.

A note on ‘X’. When I say ‘who’ I mean job title, training/qualifications/experience rather than the person’s specific name or the specific provider. The name of the person/provider must not be written in F. Case law is clear. That is to protect the child as much as anything because what would happen if the person e.g. left, was unwell or terminated the sessions.

You could always look at wording such as “Priority must always be given to those professionals with whom X has an existing trusting relationship…” if DS is already having CBT with someone. This also stops the LA using someone cheaper on a whim.

Evening all. Just wondering if anyone has experience of the current setting not wanting to be named on the EHCP? Context is that dc is now in year 10, is settled and has started GCSEs, and therefore would not make sense to move. Needs are not a particularly high level. What happens next? I’m quite worried!

I don't think they can refuse if they can meet need. "Don't want to" is different to "can't".

@BananaPie is the school wholly independent or not? That influences the answer. What are the school’s concerns?

Thanks @thatsnotmygarden. It is a state school, part of an academy trust. They have said they should not be named as not suitable for dc’s age/ability/aptitude/SEN. Which doesn’t really make sense to me. Mainstream is fine, just needs some extra support.

@BananaPie because the school is not wholly independent, they can be named even if they object. The bar for the LA to prove the exception is high. Far higher than LAs and many schools admit. Ask for specifics rather than vague objections. What specifically are they concerned about?

You also have a right to a mainstream education unless that is incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others and no reasonable steps could be taken to avoid that. So even if the LA can prove one of the exceptions in section 39(4) of the Children and Families Act 2014, the school may still become appropriate to name under s39(5).

Thanks @thatsnotmygarden reassuring!

I feel like we've messed up. We approved the EHCP draft and asked LA to consult the independent hybrid school based on the trials DS did however the school have responded that they can't meet his needs and as fully independent, that's that.

The LA have said they are only consulting with this school and his current school (which def can't meet needs). What should I be doing at this stage? I can only see EOTAS working at this stage as it's incredibly difficult to get him to engage with anything and I'm dealing with daily meltdowns getting him to attend his virtual sessions as part of hospital school.

Do the LA have to consult more widely if both schools can't meet need?

@thatsnotmygarden Sorry for the delayed thanks, I’ve only just come back to the thread.

“X” in the report relates to the type of provider, not a person. Yet it has still been ignored. I have downloaded the appeal forms today.

@LittlePickleHead the LA doesn’t have to consult with other schools before agreeing EOTAS/EOTIS. If the legal threshold is met, they don’t have to consult with any schools, but many LAs will regardless.

If you still want the independent school, you could go back to them to ask what their concerns are.