EHCP support thread no. 5

[Needlenardlenoo]

Another thread is nearly filled so here is a new one for when we need it. I am the original OP but have name-changed due to admin (let's call it spring cleaning). We got our EHCP finally in June last year and are in a state of cautious optimism two terms into the year 7 transition. There has been no contact from the LA at all to us, but perhaps no news is good news, sometimes. The next challenge is going to be the annual review. I am feeling a bit paranoid the LA might try a cease to maintain. Anyway, onwards and upwards and best wishes to all!

Here are links to previous threads:
EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread
EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2
EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3
EHCP support thread no. 4 -
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4

@Icantpeopleanymore if provision detailed, specified and quantified in F isn’t being provided, you should email the Director of Children’s Services reminding them of their duty under section 42 of the Children and Families Act 2014. Whilst doing this, you can start looking for someone with the capacity to take on your case for s pre-action letter. However, enforcement is only possible if it is detailed, specified and quantified. If it isn't, tightening the wording needs to be part of the appeal.

You need a phase transfer review meeting in the next few weeks. Then the amended phase transfer EHCP must finalised by 31st March. There won’t then need to be an AR in May.

It is normal now for ARs to take place whilst there is a live appeal ongoing. It didn’t in the past, but with the longer waits over more recent years, it is.

Since mediation didn’t lead to you resolving all the issues, you can use the mediation certificate you should have received to submit an appeal.

There is far more to PfA than careers advice alone. You are right, that isn’t anywhere near sufficient.

You can record a meeting for personal use. You don’t need permission. You can’t share the recording, but you can transcribe and distribute the transcript.

Thank you @thatsnotmygarden

It's specific enough I think. It's clearly got therapy on there, it's got GCSEs and interest based subject but it doesn't have any PfA.

It's written for a school though, which I pointed out isn't correct. They have agreed to amend the wording.

They've agreed to amend it, I already put in the appeal, but does an amended mean I have to get another certificate and start another appeal? Is it better to do that and then email the director to say they aren't providing what is in it?

Can I take what they are offering in the meantime and push for phase transfer to get next year's provisions in there at least, because if they don't give her ongoing provision, that would mean appealing that too.

I don't want them delaying an appeal date by amendments meaning I have to start the process all over again.

The issues are separate. 1) the failure to provide provision detailed, specified and quantified in F and 2) the appeal to improve the EHCP. They need dealing with separately. The remedy for the former is via JR (if possible, what you think is specific enough may not be specific enough to enforce). You can email the DCS now. The remedy for the latter is SENDIST.

The current finalised EHCP is the one that remains in force until another finalised EHCP is issued. The LA doesn’t need your consent to amend the EHCP - as long as they follow the correct process, they can amend.

If you already have a live appeal, amendments can be incorporated via the WD process. Where amended finalised versions of EHCPs have been issued, SENDIST is making some who have amended versions submit fresh appeals because it supersedes the EHCP subject to appeal. Yet other times, SENDIST is allowing the exact same circumstances to be incorporated without a fresh appeal being submitted and without pushing back the hearing. There’s no consistency at the moment. Sometimes LAs are issuing amended finalised versions and sometimes not. Personally, I wouldn’t be withdrawing your live appeal and I wouldn’t end it by consent either unless the necessary amendments are made. I would want to remain in the queue. Many hearings are being pushed back at the moment because of lack of court time. Given the timescales, the phase transfer element can just be added to the appeal next year.

Just to add to my last post because it wasn’t clear, even when SENDIST requests a parent submits another appeal, most of the time that doesn’t cause the hearing to be delayed. The ones that are delayed because of it are usually ones where the hearing is imminent, which won’t be the case for you.

@thatsnotmygarden I had some more advice to ask. After considering EOTAS as the only way to meet our son's needs, we have actually found the perfect school. It is the only hybrid mainstream school in the country (4 days online, 1 in person), however it is private. So I need to know how to maximise our chances of getting in. I'm aware we need them to offer him a place first, so I'm working on getting a conversation with the SENCO to see if we can do this.

A few questions:

• Could we get an offer of a place just generally, or does it have to be specifically related to the EHCP (we still don't have a draft back)
• If we get the offer, how do we evidence it's the best option? Currently I believe elements in our favour:
• We have tried two mainstream fully in person, which he was unable to cope with
• We tried online which he successfully engaged with from a learning perspective, but was socially isolated
• Hybrid is listed as preferred option in EP report
• Current local AP doesn't have any provisions that offer this, even where they do have this listed as a service we have visited the schools and they only offer virtual as an EOTAS package and require 5 days in person for on roll students
• Most importantly, DS has not been receptive to any of the schools we have visited, so in the light of his documented EBSNA, they will fail as we won't get him through the door. This school he was open to, really liked the visit, felt affinity with the pupils that spoke (vast majority with shared neurodivergence) and has said he would be happy to go there. THis is huge given he had a massive meltdown resulting in self harm after a visit the day before to a speciliast ASD school.
• It's actually cheaper per year than local specialist schools
• If we self funded one term (all we could really afford) to prove that it's a fit for him, would that likely help or hinder? We are really feeling desperate to get him in, and I'm worried that the EHCP will be delayed or we'll have to appeal which will mean he's out of school for longer. Would this likely lead to the belief we could continue to fund (not an option) or be in our favour as we can demonstrate it suits him?

Thanks so much again

Self funding for a term is risky. There is no easy answer. It could provide good evidence. However, sometimes LAs would refuse in the hope you continued to self fund and didn’t bother appealing. Even if you make it clear you can only afford one term, they may not believe you. What would you do after that term if the LA didn’t name the school and you had to appeal? Have you looked at the school’s notice period? One term may not be possible. Some schools have a term’s notice period, so you would be on the hook for at least 2 terms unless the LA took over funding.

If you want a wholly independent school named in the EHCP, the school needs to agree to being named in section I. Sometimes a school that would otherwise offer a place won’t offer a place for EHCP purposes.

The LA should take into account your/DS’s views and wishes, but I would avoid using the word preferred. The LA will see that as implying it is a choice - remember, there is no duty to provide to the best possible provision. Instead, I would use wording such as required, appropriate, necessary. It focuses the mind back on DS’s needs and what he requires in order for those needs to be met. To get the LA to name the school in I, you need to show the LA’s proposed school(s) can’t meet needs &/or it isn’t unreasonable public expenditure. You do this by referencing your evidence. A placement being more expensive doesn’t always mean it is unreasonable public expenditure. Make sure you are looking at all the costs. Independent MS will often charge LAs for every little bit of SEP via EHCPs. This can add up on top of the base fees. If you don’t have the draft yet (what week are you on?), you can’t accurately compare costs. Also, things like transport. Unfortunately, you may have to appeal.

Thanks, we are week 17.

Can I check, will a proposed school be in the draft plan? Or do you mean if we proposed the Independent school, and they come back with an alternative, then we have to demonstrate that it can't meet DS's needs?

Section I of the draft must be blank. It must not contain a type of placement or placement. Before naming an independent school in a finalised EHCP, the LA look at other alternatives. It is these proposed schools you need to show can’t meet needs.

Have you chased the LA for the draft?

Yes we've chased and had an apology that there are delays

Chase again. Delays are not an excuse.

They must have heard their ears burning as I now have the draft!

The case worker called me about it and she recommended to put more than one school down, but am I right that if I put an independent and a maintained down they will go for the maintained automatically?

We have been offered a TAC meeting, should we do this?

EBSNA is just mentioned once (in terms of reading that staff members should do). I need to go through it in detail to see if the rest is as expected (a quick skim shows it is).

Confused now whether to go for the independent and just hope for the best, being prepared to appeal?

Thanks for all your thought on the assessments @thatsnotmygarden — as you predicted it was all a bit much for one day so they didn’t finish the SALT assessment and the EP also wants to do some separate tests on another day.
Bit of a meltdown when we got home too so it’s an evening for pyjamas and a movie.
I have only had a few bits of initial feedback so far but I’m thrown by what I have had. The EP says he doesn’t think DD has dyslexia (which she was diagnosed with in March). She got average scores in reading spelling and maths - 43, 47 and 63rd centiles. But she got 2nd centile in reading comprehension. I’m struggling to work out how that’s even possible that she scored so low. They said she really struggled with inferring from the text. They also spoke a lot about social/ interaction challenges and said they would like to run an autism assessment. They said she felt like she was working very hard to ‘pass’ the tests and tell assessors what she thought they wanted to hear but that they saw a lot of signs of anxiety. There was also some discussion of ADD, they said she fidgeted a lot and zoned out during the maths (she does hate maths!). Is reading comprehension linked to autism/ ADD? (Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this). I’m feeling so worried for my DD after today.

@Bearlionfalcon reading comprehension can be really challenging for those with autism. My DDs both struggle with understanding the perspective of others so questions like "why did they do that?" or "what will happen next?" they would struggle to answer. As they got older, the english questions such as "why did the author use X " was impossible. They struggle with inference, predicting the behaviour of others, understanding the intentions or motives of others. They lack understanding that other people have thoughts, feelings, wishes and desires that are different from their own.

All this means that answering questions in reading comprehension is difficult for them - they managed to rote learn things at primary, but by secondary it was much harder.

As an example, when my 15yr old dd was asked to complete the sentence by the EP, she just looked at them blankly - in her mind anything could finish the sentence so she had too many choices!

When she had her SALT assessment as part of her autism assessment, they said her language development was at the level of a 7 yr old. She managed to get greater depth in her English SATS! In reality her vocabulary was advanced and she was very articulate but her understanding was not where it should have been for her age of 13.

It is a huge area to learn about - most people, even those who have an understanding of autism, don't realise the impact on language (as opposed to speech!)

I hope you manage to decompress over the weekend - assessments are exhausting for everyone!

@LittlePickleHead TAC meetings are voluntary but I would accept. Done correctly, they can help. You can use the process to help you towards your aim of an independent school.

You don’t have to state more than one placement. You should only do so if you would genuinely be happy with all of them. If you include a maintained and an independent school, the LA is unlikely to name the independent. They will go for the cheaper option.

@Bearlionfalcon I’m sorry it was all too much for DD. Assessments are utterly draining. Let them know about the meltdown today. Who diagnosed the dyslexia? And was it following a comprehensive EP assessment? Some with autism struggle with comprehension.

most people, even those who have an understanding of autism, don't realise the impact on language (as opposed to speech!)

^This. The lack of understanding is highlighted when some people say their autistic DC doesn’t need a SALT assessment or provision when they would actually benefit from it. Many have a narrow view of what SALT is. It is about far more than the physical ability to speak.

@handmademitlove thank you for this. That does make sense. It’s something she has always really struggled with but I think teachers have always attributed it to lack of confidence, shyness, perfectionism and not wanting to get things wrong. But in reality I am starting to wonder whether she actually just has no idea how to answer the questions, she is so literal she is sort of like ‘how could I possibly say what’s going to happen next, literally anything could happen next?’
@thatsnotmygarden it was just a standalone dyslexia assessment with a level 7 dyslexia specialist. At the time that it was done the school felt she had dyslexia but no signs of any other problems and said an EP assessment was not worthwhile. Should’ve listened to mumsnet!! Thanks for the messages. DD is OK now but phew yep completely exhausting for her and me!

@Bearlionfalcon in that case, I would trust the EP over the dyslexia assessor. It isn’t uncommon for a comprehensive EP assessment to uncover hidden needs. It is why a proper assessment, including cognitive testing, is important rather than the poor assessments LAs often undertake.

Some good news! Over two years after the school made the original application, and after we took the LA to tribunal for refusal to assess and refusal to issue, the tribunal has allowed our appeal and has directed the LA to secure an EHCP. A shame that two years of education were wasted but at least we got there in the end. Hopefully that will give others some inspiration to persevere.

My question is what happens next? It sounds like they have 5 weeks to send us a proposed plan. Will the LA engage with the school?

Hurrah! The LA will consult with schools. You will get the chance to state your preferred placement. The LA has 5 weeks from the date of the Order to send you the draft, 11 weeks to finalise.

Thanks. Although I am thinking that we will just stick with current school as now in year 10 (despite having started the process of collecting evidence in year 7)

Well done @BananaPie that's great news, crazy it took so long. I think I've been lucky in many ways as DD got her EHCP without a battle, but she had completely crashed out of school by then so not really lucky, I wish we'd never had to apply.

I now have a meeting with the LA next Wednesday to discuss my request for amendments to her EHCP, which is written for a school setting when she has EOTIS and doesn't have any PfA..they probably won't budge much but appeal is in and been confirmed it's with Sendist now so 🤷

I'm requesting more education hours, which they have agreed to, and for more flexibility with the mentoring budget and the education budget so I don't have them just assigning us a mentoring company and them not working out. No idea if they will agree or not. Don't even know if the kind of mentor we need exists really...she needs someone with a counselling qualification, with a dog, as that's the only way she will speak to anyone, and who will do some general social chit chat and hopefully a bit of support with organising herself, try to get her to open up a bit plus maybe even get her out of the house for a walk and who can do all this without me there!

They currently fund 3 hours a week of tuition extra online, so I'm hope this magical unicorn can be found and the budget will cover it..

I also asked them to give me a date for her phase transfer review meeting.

So far she has an online school which is working really well, English, English lit and maths. I need to find her some other courses that would give her a level 2. Qualification, something self guided would possibly work, video tutorials etc. I've offered her a few like technology triumphs art and design and she's not been bothered, but I'm going to try offering her a few different options to look at.

I don't really know where to start though, and with the mentoring I just don't know if she will engage with anyone. That's why we need the flexibility, we could try so many different things and not have them work for her.

It's still a positive step though and they're good problems to have!

I've only got a week to come up with things to ask for, does anyone on here with EOTIS know of resources where I could start looking?

Don’t focus on the budget, focus on getting the provision in F. If it is in F, it must be funded. It isn’t about if the budget will cover it.

You can find mentors for all types of roles. Not least because you can recruit directly. Provision doesn’t have to be via agencies or APs.

In order to suggest courses, what subject areas are you looking for? Are you looking for GCSE qualifications or other level 2 qualifications or a mixture/either?

Thank you @thatsnotmygarden It is definitely in F, it says adults to work with her on social use of language, adults to deliver animal or art based counselling, and also to work with her on calming techniques, as long with a few other things. Which I think should all be covered by a mentor. It's written with school in mind currently which is what I'd like them to change.

What isn't there is pfa which I'm trying to get them to add, because then it could cover careers advice, travel training, budgeting etc, alfo with a mentor.

I guess I'm thinking well they're funding mentors currently who aren't doing anything...they can't say no to this if it's within that budget.

I am appealing but that won't help me if they don't give the provision that's already in the plan, and if the appeal is successful and in a years time they put the other things like physio in, if they still didn't provide it I'd have to do JR, and I just don't have the fight left in me. I've got a divorce going on, a house to sell and my younger child alfo has needs, plus working. 🤯

I also can't see her even engaging with any of this so it's the fighting for things to then realise it's pointless as she won't do it!

Sorry rant over. I'm so tired!

For education, it's so difficult, she's already got three GCSEs on the go and I really don't think it's a good idea to add more and overwhelm her, plus her online school started them in year 9, she's joined year 10, and she's doing great but might be at her limit on those I think. I also worry about exams as she might not cope well.

So maybe equivalent courses, more hands on. Needs to be no pressure, at her own pace.

She loves animals, dogs in particular, likes crafts, crochet, sewing etc, cake decorating, baking, plays guitar. Very into social justice, gaming, very good at tech.

Hoping something self directed she can do in modules. She shut down the technology triumphs art and design level 2 course they have funded, Wasn't interested. I also think she has ADHD, she gets into something then just stops, changes her taste in music, clothes, everything, every other week.

Thing is I'll see something and think oh that would be perfect and she just can't allow herself to do it or she's not bothered about that thing any more.

I think something animal related would be perfect as she is obsessed. Not sure if it exists! We are in Kent, it's possible to go somewhere but only with transport as I have to work and fitting all this in on the days I can be home is impossible.

If the provision is already detailed, specified and quantified in F but isn’t being provided, the remedy is JR, not appeal. An appeal won’t resolve provision not being provided. However, if it is written as you have written here, it is not sufficient, whether DD was in school or not. It is far too far and woolly. If it isn’t detailed, specified and quantified, it isn’t enforceable, so the wording needs to be improved via appeal.

I guess I'm thinking well they're funding mentors currently who aren't doing anything...they can't say no to this if it's within that budget.

They can and often will unless it is detailed, specified and quantified in F.

For an animal course, have a look at Senshine tutoring. They run an ASDAN animal care course. I say course, but it isn’t like a GCSE course. No exams. You can go at DC’s pace. There are options other than live sessions.

The Reptile Academy does some remote AQA awards relating to animals. There in person offer isn’t in your area, but you can still do remote work with them.

If you have a dog, you could look at Pawsitive Squad.

The College of Animal Welfare does an online city and guilds level 2 course, but it doesn’t sound like that would work for DD at the moment. It would probably be too structured and from what you say, I’m don't sure she would manage the work experience side of things.

You could look at LCB’s education boxes. They run from pre-entry level up to level 2. Lots of different areas of interests you can pick and choose. Some are animal related. Little crafters also have boxes not linked to education qualifications/awards.

Transport, and escort if necessary, can be provided. If in person provision would work for DD, there are several/equine/animal farm provisions in Kent. Some run qualifications, some don’t. Some offer AAT, some don’t. For example, Frampton Farm offer level 2 qualifications.

Other ideas not linked to qualifications. Have a look at spectrum space boxes. These work well for DC who need no pressure and self-directed provision but whose interests change. They are bespoke to a child’s needs/requirements.

Some people have subscription boxes for things like sewing as part of their packages. No qualifications but would enable DD to pick it up and put it down when she wants/needs and to change it when she wants.

For gaming, look at Mindjam, Player Ready, Tubers Academy. They all offer online provision. Overworld’s site isn’t in Kent but they can sometimes offer online provision and can sometimes offer qualifications including at level 2.

Was it specifically that technology triumphs course DD didn’t like? Or technology triumphs full-stop? They do other courses such as cake decorating.

Those are all fab suggestions, some I had heard of some not, thanks, I'll start looking through them

The provision that is there is specific enough, but the issue is they haven't and aren't agreeing to add provisions for PFA and they have ignored reports that say she needs physiotherapy. So I'm appealing for those.

Then I'd have to do JR if they won't provide them once it's in the plan...but I'm just trying to get what I can out of them now, as with the length of the wait for appeal I just need to get her more now, so I'm focussing on getting what they have offered to be better and then appealing for the language and provision.

Sorry, forgot, I mentioned the technology triumphs courses to her, I'd got art and design in the PB, but she just wasn't interested. She's gone cake decorating at home and really got into it, then just stopped. PDA. 🤷

I am always walking on eggshells with her, if I even suggest something and it's the wrong time, she will shut down, it's so tricky.

I'm hoping to print out a load of info about different options and then just try to get her to say yes no maybe...