EHCP support thread no. 5

[Needlenardlenoo]

Another thread is nearly filled so here is a new one for when we need it. I am the original OP but have name-changed due to admin (let's call it spring cleaning). We got our EHCP finally in June last year and are in a state of cautious optimism two terms into the year 7 transition. There has been no contact from the LA at all to us, but perhaps no news is good news, sometimes. The next challenge is going to be the annual review. I am feeling a bit paranoid the LA might try a cease to maintain. Anyway, onwards and upwards and best wishes to all!

Here are links to previous threads:
EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread
EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2
EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3
EHCP support thread no. 4 -
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4

@LittlePickleHead yes, wholly independent schools require the school to agree to be named.

The AP question depends on what you mean by AP. When you say an AP, do you mean an AP school, e.g. an alternative provision free school or an alternative provision academy? If so, the same rules apply as they do to any free school or academy. There are limited lawful reasons the LA can refuse to name parental preference and the school can be named even if they object. The LA can only refuse to name parental preference if:
-The setting is unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or special educational needs of the child or young person; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the efficient use of resources.
However, some LAs have local ‘policies’ of not naming AP schools in section I of EHCPs, but they can be.

Or do you mean an AP setting such as a care farm, forest school, tuition centre, a gaming AP, outward bounds centre… that isn’t a registered school. In these cases, the AP isn’t named in section I. Section I is blank for EOTAS/EOTIS and the provision described in section F but the specific provider is not named in F (but the name may be included in J). APs don’t have to agree to provide DC with provision. You would need them to agree. So you are aware, provision isn’t limited to only those APs on the LAs approved list/in their provision catalogue. Many LAs try to say otherwise, but it isn’t true.

It’s an independent school on the AP list for Lewisham (The Tutorial Foundation if that helps!). The day school seems to offer the flexibility DS needs, but I assume because they take LA referrals they are not wholly independent?

@LittlePickleHead The Tutorial Foundation is registered as an independent special school. See here. It is a section 41 independent school so it can be named even if the school objects. See here.

(More generally rather than about this specific setting, just because LAs consult with a school doesn’t necessarily mean they are not wholly independent. Some will be.)

@thatsnotmygarden “provision isn’t limited to only those APs on the LAs approved list/in their provision catalogue. Many LAs try to say otherwise, but it isn’t true”

sorry to jump on but how do you get around this? Is it a PB via direct payments? When the LA says no need to use their providers only. Thank you

@Toomuchrain12 it can be via DPs, but it doesn’t always have to be.

In many cases, it is a case of the approved providers not being able to provide the provision in F/not being suitable - this is where having F written correctly is important. Then, if the LA say only approved providers, the response is those providers are unable to provide the provision and the LA’s duty remains, so they must accept provision from someone not on their approved list, however it is funded, and if they don't, you will proceed to enforcing the provision.

Had a meeting today with the private OT in advance of DD's assessment and she seemed to completely get DD and what I was saying, which is such a relief. She did do DD's previous assessment two years ago and I remember thinking that at the time.

She's very thorough too, even last time, it was just meant to be a sensory assessment, but she also did some motor skills tests, visual motor integration etc. This time she said she's going to look at everything to get a fully rounded picture, eg executive functioning, motor skills in more detail etc. She's got quite extensive EHCP experience and is local so experienced with our LA in particular.

Fingers crossed...

@Namechangeagain80 great that you got such a good assessment done from the OT, that’s so encouraging when someone really gets it.
My DD has hers booked for a couple of weeks time and has EP and SALT assessments booked for this Friday. Decided in the end that I couldn’t wait for however long it took for the school / LA to decide she needed proper assessments and I couldn’t go another academic year without her needs being properly understood. Hoping to get the EHCP application off before Xmas if I can.

@Bearlionfalcon do the EP and SALT know they are both undertaking assessments on the same day? Good assessments of both are in depth, take time, and can be utterly exhausting. Many professionals would not undertake an assessment on the same day as another professional.

@thatsnotmygarden I have another question for you (and thank you so much for the invaluable advice you are providing everyone).

There is a school we've seen that DS liked on the surface apart from it being a special school (though I'm hoping we can do work to bring him round). So I arranged another tour today as it's been a while since we've seen it. However, upon talking to them it seems like even if we name the school on the EHCP there is still a need to go to an application panel and they would assess suitability, and then if they have space for the child.

They have said:
"You can express a preference for your child to attend a DSP during the EHC needs assessment, annual review processes or at secondary transfer. An application form will need to be completed."

So does this mean that we can't actually name this school in the EHCP? Or that even if we do they are not compelled to take DS? I have no doubt he will fit the criteria, but we did speak to a parent on a tour of another school that said they have been told no space (I don't know if they have an EHCP though)

I am so worried about getting the EHCP wrong and causing more delays. The person I spoke to on the phone at this school (Newhaven King's Park Campus) said she didn't know what happened if places were turned down.

As an aside, our case worker came back to us today and said HOP could accept DS up until the finalised EHC Plan, which is currently delayed apparently. I called HOP and they said they haven't actually turned DS down they are waiting for more info from CAMHs, and have another review tomorrow morning, so hopefully we can get this in place as a temporary measure.

I would agree with this, DS was utterly exhausted after his assessments, they are hours long if done properly

Yes, it's a multidisciplinary team and I think they work together and the idea is that it's less exhausting? I think?

@thatsnotmygarden I literally just went through the list of names you suggested and its' the clinic set up by one of those EPs although it's not her doing the assessment but the only other EP in her practice, apparently they work int he same way. The EP definitely has SENDIST experience and is very highly qualified. I liked the idea of the MDA (Multidisciplinary assessment) as it seemed the most comprehensive and appropriate for DD as we don't know exactly what is wrong. It encompasses EP, SALT, OT and school observation. All the reports are supposed to be EHCP standard and are geared for this.

To be honest I jumped at it when they said they had an appointment so soon, most EPs with SENDIST experience don't have anything until the new year (as you thought most likely), the other EP I liked was booking first appointments for February and quite a number haven't got back to me at all so I guess they are snowed. One said they didn't want to assess until a year had passed from her dyslexia assessment in March anyway.

I really hope it's ok and they are reputable. Idea is supposed to be EP in the morning then SALT in the afternoon but if she is exhausted by lunchtime I guess I can push for SALT to be another day.

@Bearlionfalcon ah, I know which one it is. Yes, their MDT assessments don’t run quite the same as assessments from a completely separate EP and SALT would. They are reputable - purely personal preference that I included the EP I did on my list and not the other. It will still be exhausting, though.

There will be some professionals with SENDIST experience who have capacity opening up as parents who were having them attend hearings as witnesses have their hearings vacated.

@LittlePickleHead when you get the draft, you will be able to respond to it, including stating your preferred placement. This is what the first sentence of your quote means. The other parts of that sentence about annual reviews or secondary transfer aren’t relevant to your situation because this is a new EHCP.

The second sentence of your quote is wrong, but something many LAs claim. You do not have to complete an application form.

There are limited reasons (set out in my response to you yesterday) the LA can refuse to name your preferred placement if it is not wholly independent. On its own, being ‘full’ isn’t enough to refuse to name your preferred placement. The LA has to prove the school is so full admitting DC is incompatible with the efficient education of others or efficient use of resources. The bar for this is higher than LAs and many schools admit. It has to be something tangible and specific and is more than an “adverse effect”, “impact on” or “prejudicial to”.

If a school that is not wholly independent is named in section I of an EHCP by an LA (you don’t name a school in the EHCP, the LA does - sometimes after a ‘panel’ - which may not actually exist in the form you are envisioning), they must admit. If the school tries to refuse, they can be forced to admit, including via JR if necessary. You do not need to go through another admission process or panel, and claiming to be full is irrelevant. The school can, in theory, challenge being named, but in practice this very very rarely happens because schools know the bar is far, far higher than them merely disagreeing with being named.

If the LA finalises the EHCP and doesn’t name your preferred school, you can appeal.

@thatsnotmygarden this is so amazingly helpful, thank you

@thatsnotmygarden thanks for the reassurance. I spoke to the EP today ahead of the appointment, the EP actually even suggested having read dd’s file that they also do an autism assessment as part of the MDA which threw me a bit. My husband asked if they are trying to upsell us which I replied I think they are too reputable for that but I can’t make up my mind whether to do it. I haven’t deep down felt like DD is autistic, but obviously I’m no expert in autism especially in girls, and I suppose there are some signs/ traits though it’s a very unclear picture…. maybe doing this as part of the MDA now is a massively better option than waiting years for an NHS assessment which could take years and not knowing in the meantime. It does seem an awful lot at once though I agree… between this and the multi page questionnaires I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed with it already and we haven’t even started the NA!
Can I ask a quick question about legal advice, did anyone get legal help before they submitted the EHCPNA, advising on their application, what to include, how to best approach the process, strategy for avoiding refusal to assess, etc?

@Bearlionfalcon they don’t need to upsell. There is more than enough demand to fill their capacity with medico-legal reports several times over. That’s not to say you should go ahead with an ASD assessment if you don’t want to. Don’t feel as though you have to. If your focus is on the EHCNA, it isn’t essential to have a diagnosis. EHCPs are based on needs. And it would be a perfectly valid choice to decide it isn’t for you (at this point in time or ever).

If you would consider an independent ASD assessment at some point, and you can afford it (see note on finances below), then doing it all while you are at it should be cheaper than it otherwise would be because some elements of the assessment overlap with what will be done, anyway.

You don’t need legal advice, especially at this stage. There isn’t a failsafe way of safeguarding against refusal to assess or refusal to issue. All LAs act unlawfully at times regardless of what parents do or have. There are some sensible steps you can take such as not making it known before you even make an EHCNA request that you want a high cost independent SS or EOTAS/EOTIS because then the LA has even more incentive to refuse to assess.

Unless money is no object, even if you will want legal representation at some stage, there are better points in the process to save your money for. Unless you keep a handle on spending, even if you want to spend money during the process, there is a risk finances run away with you if you aren’t careful if you are seeking 3 independent assessments at this stage on top of legal advice just for the EHCNA request. So you can make an informed decision on what to spend your money on here are some examples of where some people sometimes spend money further on in the process: representation for appeals (and you potentially have 3 appeals ahead of you), a draft check, pre-action letters, addendums to the reports or updated reports, reports from other types of professionals, &/or witnesses attending any hearings. As you can see, it would be possible for spending to spiral without picking and choosing what you spend your money on. If it is ever a choice between affording independent evidence and representation, you should always choose evidence. The best representation in the country can only work with the evidence they have.

@thatsnotmygarden thanks so much for this. You’re right about spiralling costs and we do need to bear this in mind. But you’re probably right that this would definitely be the most efficient and cost effective way to ever get an independent ASD assessment done. The EP was very nice and said we could wait and see and he could advise on the day whether he thought an ASD assessment would be worthwhile. I will probably just decide on the day.
It’s just a bit of a curveball as I actually suspected inattentive ADHD more strongly than autism. I have this myself as does my mother and recognise lots of the signs in DD, it’s just difficult sometimes to disentangle them from the dyslexia presentation/ processing. And to go back to your cost point, it’s really going to rack up if we need to assess for that as well which in my back of my mind I feel we will, argh!
We are lucky we can afford these assessments at the moment, and fundamentally, we feel we really do need her needs to be understood and addressed as soon as possible, even if the EHCP never happens. Even if we do the autism assessment the cost of everything so far will still be only equivalent to a single term for a single child at the very average local private school which I’m feeling like we might end up sending DD to if doesn’t get the EHCP.
Your view on legal opinion chimes with my own that it’s not needed at this point but I wanted to sense check it with someone who knows better than me, as the clinic advised me I might want to get early legal advice.
Maybe this is false confidence but I feel my skillset lends itself quite well to sorting out this application, reading up on the law, seeking advice on how to approach the process etc but what I clearly can’t produce or replicate is medical or theraputic expertise/ evidence and reports so yes that’s where I feel it makes sense to put our resources.
Thanks again for the great advice.

Does anyone have any experience with funding calculations? I am trying to get my head around high needs funding. DS is now in a special school but LA has been stalling on funding his EHCP provision, so when they calculate allocated funding for therapies such as counselling, OT, SALT and his 1:1 TA hours do they subtract £10k element 1&2 funding first then top up is the remainder as element 3? If school gets extra per place do they take that off too first?

@Bearlionfalcon have you considered looking at RTC for an ASD assessment (and potentially an ADHD assessment)?

Elements of dyslexia, ASD and ADHD overlap and can be intertwined. It can be tricky to unpick. For those with multiple diagnoses, it isn't always possible to attribute parts of the person’s presentation to only one of their diagnoses.

@Choconuttolata focus on the provision detailed, specified and quantified in F rather than the funding. If it is detailed, specified and quantified in F, the LA is responsible for ensuring the provision is provided, and that includes ensuring there is adequate funding. This duty is absolute and non-delegable. If provision isn’t provided, it can be enforced. If it isn’t detailed, specified and quantified in F, it doesn’t have to be provided.

Thanks @thatsnotmygarden it is very detailed and specific thanks to us going through the Tribunal process. The LA still haven't provided the funding nor detailed what they are providing based on the EHCP provision, they are just saying they are liaising with the school and the school say they haven't clarified what funding they are providing over and above the standard funding.

@thatsnotmygarden Thank you. I haven't looked into RTC, no. I hadn't been pursuing any particular diagnosis because her profile has seemed so unclear to me. Her school have always said to me they don't suspect autism or ADHD (but then again they didn't suspect dyslexia either and that was beyond obvious in hindsight!)
Have reflected a lot over the past 24 hours. I think what I've been doing is saying to myself 'she can't be autistic because X Y and Z' and 'It can't be ADHD because X Y and Z' - but not really considering the fact that her contradictory/ complex presentation might be because she has multiple diagnosis and is masking in various ways - and that that's why she doesn't fit neatly into any particular diagnosis, rather than because she doesn't have any of them. I am very confused but I think the MDA starting tomorrow is the right call and as we're committed we will probably go for the autism assessment as part of it and see where we end up. I did read up on AuADHD and the way in which the complexities of having both can mean someone doesn't identify fully with either condition, and lots of the common features do seem relevant to DD (regularly burn out from being too busy and overwhelmed socially, but struggle to slow down to recharge; environment might become messy and chaotic easily, leading to overwhelm and difficulty functioning; hyper-organised to compensate for their disorganised brain; anxious every day about running late or not being early; exceptional long-term memory but a poor working/short-term memory; intense/special interests may regularly change theme or topic)

@Choconuttolata focus on the provision rather than the funding. If the provision detailed, specified and quantified in F isn’t being provided, you can enforce the provision. Email the Director of Children’s Services reminding them of their duty. If that doesn’t work, you need a pre-action letter. You could start looking for someone with capacity to take you on because that can take perseverance. If a pre-action letter doesn’t work, JR will resolve the issue.

Thanks @thatsnotmygarden the legal advisor wants to know the funding offer and whether school can provide provision with that before doing a pre-action letter. LA have still not clarified with school what the funding offer is for element 3, so a bit stuck at the moment on moving forward.

You don’t need to know the funding arrangements before moving to a pre-action letter. If you want to proceed to a pre-action letter, I would look for someone else.

Things have moved on for us, I'm too overwhelmed with work, family, ex-husband stuff, life in general to even deal with it now though...

The LA have finally got back to me about the mediation actions..they have agreed to amend the EHCP, which is good, and to add another subject to the three she has with online school and one she has with technology triumphs...which she hasn't engaged with.

I've also got someone dealing with it and a caseworker for once the amended EHCP is done.

They've agreed to some careers advice too.

Which is meant to be her 'preparation for adulthood '.

My gut is, it's not enough. I want them to give her what is in the EHCP, they wrote it! Mainly, the therapy that's written into it, which should be canine assisted. They've just given us rubbish mentors so far who just weren't right. Plus actually provide a full time education.

So my choice is wait till it's amended and then put in yet another appeal, and in the meantime take what they are offering I guess, or refuse it and carry on with the original appeal?

But she's also due for phase transfer review by march...so will they result in another rewrite, before the first appeal even gets a hearing?

Them what about annual review, in may? If they change it again, is that another appeal?

Currently I'm most worried that they will take away her online school, halfway through her IGCSE courses, and I'll either have to find £5k to fund it, or I'll have to appeal, but then she won't get any provision if they try to take it away and force college. She'd have to start all over again.

I'm so lost.

I want to ask for a meeting but I don't trust them. Can I record it? Or I suppose ask for someone else to be there, but I don't have anyone.