EHCP support thread no. 4

[Phineyj]

We've nearly filled the thread again, so here's a new one. Welcome everyone: newcomers, people stuck in the process; battle-hardened veterans of many years...

Here are links to previous threads:

EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread

EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2

EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3

Yeah they tried him in SENCO office but he was just messing with everything that he shouldn’t be touching. He was really overstimulated throughout the days when he first started, acted out a lot, a lot of meltdowns etc there was days where I had to physically pick him up to take him into the school this was throughout September-November , he has settled quite well now and is happy in school and going to school, he still has his moments as I call them when it’s too noisy but they seem to be doing there best to handle him and give him breaks from the classroom etc the outburst and meltdowns are nearly probably 1 a week instead of 4 a day if that makes sense

Perfect thank you, that is good to know because we are waiting for a educational psychologist report to come in ( they are working 6 weeks behind )

The SENCO is helpful and is doing his ehcp, his teacher and ta and support teacher has gathered a lot of evidence to add to it too and they have adjusted things a lot from him in the classroom and still involve him with everything, even if he might not like it they still do try and have even out him with. Small group of child to open him up to interacting with his peers, they have said they want him to be full time before he turns 5 (he is a June baby) but I just don’t know what goes into it as it’s my first time with the whole school system never mind SENCO school system so I don’t know what I’m entitled to say or not if that makes sense x

To add again as well, he is in nappies still as he’s unable to communicate when he needs the toilet

If you want DS to attend full time (or part-time but more than he is attending now), he can. The school cannot refuse unless they formally suspend. If the school refused, that would be an unlawful informal exclusion. Don’t worry if they do go on to suspend. A formal suspension instead of an unlawful, informal exclusion will a) provide evidence of unmet needs, b) force the school to follow due process, c) limit the number of days the school can suspend for, d) allow you to challenge any suspension. Once DS is CSA, it would also ensure he receives alternative provision for longer suspensions.

However, if you want DS to continue to attend part time, he can until September. It is your decision.

Really, the school should have requested an EHCNA before now. And the nursery should have.

The LA have opposed our appeal to tribunal.
Not surprised but feeling abit shocked and saddened and pissed off tbh.

What the hell happens now?

Actually have I understood it wrong, the appeal will still go ahead?

@Sunshineclouds11 In the initial response, our LA also said they oppose our appeal. I think that’s normal, ours is still going ahead. I just took it to mean they disagree with my reasons for appealing.

@Ponche Ok that makes sense. Thank you

@BrightYellowTrain

Thank you!

Sat down to start the letter this morning, and had a phone call from the Local Authority.

They said they’d send the amended EHCP by the end of the week.

They also asked about my difficulties with the school. I didn’t know whether to speak out, but I thought honesty and transparency is the best policy.
I will be paying close attention to section F.
I’m now stressing because I’ve clearly annoyed the school and I’m wondering if they might respond with a ‘cannot meet needs’ on his amended EHCP.
Anyway, I told the LA that I will fight with everything I have to keep him in mainstream for now. And I think the LA will support me here as it costs them less money.

Someone posted earlier about there are schools that do their best to help vulnerable children, and those that try to push them out. This is spot on. An inclusivity rating would be very helpful!

Hello, can I join for some support / advice?

I have appealed refusal to issue for my DC in year 9 (having previously won a refusal to assess appeal).

The LA stated in the refusal to issue decision letter that the special educational provision required can be made through the school’s ordinarily available resources, so an EHCP is not necessary.

My appeal is on the basis that the EHCP is necessary because in its absence my DC will not get the vast majority of the interventions which were recommended in the EHCNA. The school is not able to provide them in the absence of funding and an OT and EP on site.

I have now received the LAs response. It doesn’t really directly address my argument that the school can’t provide the necessary interventions. Instead it quotes a fair amount of case law regarding the definition of the word necessary.

I’m not quite sure what to do next. I have a few weeks to submit final evidence but if the tribunal is just going to look at a point of law rather than the reality of the situation (which is that the LA have no idea what the school can resource and are incorrectly assuming the provision can be made without an EHCP), I’m thinking I don’t stand much chance of winning.

I haven’t employed a legal team - just done everything myself so far, but I wonder if I should get some proper advice and a representative.

The hearing is 11 months away, currently planned on papers but again interested to know if in person would be better.

thanks !

@RibbyJumper even if the school claim they are unable to meet needs, if it is your preferred school, there are limited reasons the LA can use to refuse to name your preference. Nothing you have posted suggests the high bar for one of those reasons would be reached.

@Sunshineclouds11 yes, it means the appeal continues.

@BananaPie the majority of appeals are upheld, so don’t panic. You don’t need a legal team. You do need evidence. A Tribunal is about the law. That is why evidence is so important. However, the law covers whether needs can and will be met.

Is your evidence from the EHCNA as good as you think it is? By that I mean is it detailed, specified and quantified? Or is it vague and woolly? Have you sought independent assessments? Don’t worry about the evidence deadline. If necessary, you can request for late evidence to be admitted. Most of the time, it is allowed.

For a refusal to issue, I would only accept a paper hearing if it is a rock solid case with watertight evidence.

@BananaPie We've been refused to issue also, along with the same reason.

Currently in the appeals process.
We are getting private reports done at the moment for further evidence.

Not doing a paper hearing, no matter how good our new reports may be.

Paper hearings did the job for us both times and are a little quicker.

@BrightYellowTrain @Sunshineclouds11
thank you, that is really helpful. I will ask to move to an in person hearing when I submit the case review form. I was tempted to go on papers because they said the tribunal date would be earlier. My DC will have started year 10 by the hearing and the school first started gathering evidence in year 7. Time left in education is slipping away!

In terms of the evidence, the school are setting out what they can and can’t provide. I have asked them for details of their SEN budget but the SENCO has said she can’t provide this. I suspect I should insist they do.

I think the reports from the EHCNA are ok. We have had previous private EP, OT and SLT reports and the EHCNA reports took these into account. The recommendations that can’t be met seem to be well drafted to me. Here’s an example one:

A programme which supports the development of higher-order language and social communication skills, including:

• Spoken narrative skills and conversational skills.

• Social use of language and language for thinking.

• Confidence in communicating needs and feelings across different contexts

(e.g., using scripts and simulation).

• Personalised teaching of social rules and behaviours and to go through situations

that X has found difficult or has not understood such as by using social behaviour mapping, SOCCSS (Situation, Options, Consequences, Choices, Strategy, Simulation).

The use of content from the Language for Behaviour and Emotions programme and Social Use of Language and Language for Thinking programmes can be used to support the above. The above programme should be provided once weekly on an individualised basis, for 30 minutes by a Teaching Assistant or member of staff who has experience in leading social skills programmes in school.

It will be interesting to see if this government cracks down on those academies excluding SEND children or refusing to deliver the individualised plans the SEND CoP requires. Not sure why tax payers should bear the cost of academies attempts to massage their performance by excluding children with SEND needs? In other areas of public administration this sort of manipulation might attract censure?

Or why children, for whom mainstream would be the preferred setting, are being denied a suitable education?

Or why any SENDCO is allowed to take the line, 'we do quality first teaching, we're mainstream', given SEND law?

@NonplasticBertrand elements of the controversial Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill includes changes to academies.

@BananaPie bases heard on the papers are a bit quicker, but personally, I would only do a paper hearing for refusal to issue if it is a very cut and dried case with watertight evidence.

The example is certainly better than many. It could be improved, e.g. by removing ‘member of staff’. What experience - 1 day or something more? What training/qualifications will the TA have? Removing ‘such as’. ‘Can be used’ doesn’t mean it will be. ‘Will be’ is better than ‘should be’.

Did you use IPSEA’s model letter to request the school’s SEN budget information? If not, use that to request it again. Copy in the headteacher. If you have already done that, I would ask again and be a bit pushier. If that doesn't work, I would also email the LA. If they continue to refuse, you can ask SENDIST to Order them to disclose the information. You can also request a costed provision map for DC.

@BrightYellowTrain

What has the world come to when an anonymous poster on Mumsnet provides better/more succinct/ impartial advice than anyone else.

Thanks @BrightYellowTrain

I see from the HoC briefing that:

The bill would make very significant and wide-ranging changes to academy schools and the rules they have to follow. These are schools that are funded by the government but are not connected to local authority; instead they are run by an academy trust, a not-for-profit company.
In short, the bill would ‘roll back’ many of the freedoms these schools were given when the current academy framework was established under the coalition and conservative governments after 2010. Academies would be subject to most of the same duties as maintained schools – that is, schools funded and overseen by local authorities.

Thanks @BrightYellowTrain I did use the ipsea model letter. I will ask again and copy the head.

LA have issued the EHCP pretty sharpish. They've ignored the private SLT report and the associated provision and now I have to figure out if I have the energy to appeal that part, but otherwise am generally happy with it. If we appeal it won't be in place until secondary now anyway.

But- my favourite part was that DD's school went back to the LA and said the funding band was too low. The LA said ok then- cost it out, but at our rate of £12.50 an hour. The senco had to point out that was below the London minimum wage and the LA have now gone a bit quiet.

Also the nearest academy famous for avoiding SEN students and with awful pastoral care called today as the LA had pointlessly additionally consulted them. It was almost comedy how desperate they were for me to say they weren't our first choice and had terrible pastoral care. We acknowledged our mutual animosity towards each other so they can say they are not a suitable placement.

That's good news @Macramepotholder.

Not sure what you mean by London min wage though - do you mean living wage? They don't have to pay that.

Oh my bad yes it is higher. Still, they don't actually have to pay anything do they?

Cor though, wish they'd pay me and you for all the work we've done!!

I think they're arguing for band 3 funding rather than band 2 which if I understand correctly would mean they would have to pay for it.

I think they're probably right actually when you add up all the provision time.

Ha ha yes I wish they would pay us. Just need to decide whether to push for the SALT provision now, there's a sort of budget version in the EHCP instead. Given appeal times it wouldn't be in place until secondary anyway so the other option is to wait until AR after term 1 of secondary and work with the Senco to say it's needed. I suspect the timings may end up similar.