AIBU to be angry at school so early in...

[misskellyb]

My son is being assessed for autism and a strong possibility of ADHD (can't assess yet as he's too young).

He has a lot of sensory processing difficulties. One of these being toileting. He has just started reception at a small, one form school and is still in nappies. He is on daily laxatives and regularly soils. Therefore he is still in nappies. He will not toilet train. If he wears pants (and sometimes even when wearing nappies - if he's in uncomfortable environments) he will withhold his wee and poo up until the point of getting so unwell he requires enemas at hospital or ends up with severe stomach pains from not weeing. When he has pants on he has a tendency to poo his pants with the overflow of poo and requires changing of his clothes and pants regularly.

He had his first day in reception yesterday. He had his nappy changed once and was introduced to the toilet but showed no interest in following his peers and using it. I'm hoping in time he will be comfortable enough to start using a toilet at school. However today, when we got home I noticed his nappy was still in his bag and his nappy hadn't been changed and was full of wee and poo. I will be raising this with the school tomorrow.

He also struggles with transitions, one of these being transitions with clothing. For example on a morning he for some reason refuses to change out of his pyjamas and will meltdown to the point that some days he has to stay in pyjamas. He struggles going from season to season changing from summer clothing (shorts and short sleeved t shirts to jumpers and trousers and vice versa). As you know it's extremely hot and he was left in his school jumper all day at school today. I confronted the school when he walked out in a jumper and The school said they asked him to change out of his jumper but he said no, so he was left to play all day in a wooly jumper with a soiled, wet nappy( I was unaware of the nappy being unchanged at this time).

As he does have additional needs I've asked the teacher if they will feed back to me regularly how he is getting on as his speech is somewhat delayed. The teacher said that they have 30 other children so this isn't possible. AIBU to be abit annoyed about this? I acknowledge their high numbers of children however surely for SEN children they can find a way to prioritise feeding back to parents, weekly, fortnightly, monthly? She said no news is good news so if I hear nothing all is fine. But the news that my sons nappy wasn't changed today and the news that he wouldn't change out of his school jumper is surely news I should be made aware of and not having to find out for myself?

AIBU to be annoyed they left him in a dirty nappy all day? Especially in this heat! They have a duty of care and this is just neglect. He will be prone to infections if this carries on and possibly bullying if other children smell or notice the nappy. The school have had multiple meetings with me regarding his needs and his continence issues. I spoke the school on his first day yesterday to make sure the reception teachers were aware he needs his nappy changed and support around toileting and they assured me this is fine. They also have clinic letters from paediatricians and the continence team outlining that my son will need regular toilet breaks and support around toileting and changing.

I try everything at home to encourage toileting. But toileting issues have been his whole life. We've tried everything and I mean, everything. To the point where no more reward charts, sensory toys, or bribery will encourage him and it's just a waiting game for it to be on his terms but in the process I don't want him facing difficulties at school for this and personal hygiene issues.

You'd think second day in they'd be on the ball as well and I'm just worried this is the start of problems to come.

Hi op, did you get an explanation of what happened yesterday?

This is an interesting answer if you have worked in this field. You are saying there is no chance in hell you'd change a child's poo, so how is it that the schools and local authorities and continence teams (who deal with school aged children day in day out with these issues) all push to say they can and it's something that doesn't require an EHCP and can be met in mainstream. Apparently his continence needs wouldn't be a reason for an EHCP. So from my point of view I do ask am I being unreasonable to expect his care needs met when apparently they can be?

I'm genuinely intrigued and this is a genuine question. Is it that they should but don't want to? Is it that the teachers are being pushed beyond their limits and perhaps need more funding in schools if children with these disabilities are in their setting with refusals for ehcps? What's your thought on this then? Because whatever is happening, something is falling in this system.

Thank you for asking and to the poster below.

No unfortunately I didn't get an explanation.

But I've sent a lengthy email to the school about this and mentioned an intimate care plan. I am hoping this is sorted early next week.

His nappy was changed at lunch time today which is good. It was full (wee) when he got home however but I was glad for a change during the day.

He's had a bit of a wobbly day, lots of fun but had an incident where he got in to trouble. I can only assume this is due to being overwhelmed in a new setting. This is a whole new experience and overwhelming and probably heightened his sensory intake. But I'll queue the bad behaviour comments next.

Glad he was changed today.

To clarify, I've changed children who have pooed themselves. It's not pleasant to do, but leaving them sitting in it would be appalling. What I meant was that if I knew a child would be pooing several times a day, every day, and need to be changed (you originally said every half hour at times but I see you've explained you'd keep him home on those days) I wouldn't agree to take responsibility for toileting that child every time.

We did have one Reception child in nappies who had similar continence issues. However, he also had diagnosed global developmental delay, so he got an EHCP fairly quickly, and 1:1 support. At my last school when posts were advertised for 1:1 support for a specific child, anything particular to their needs would be mentioned in the job description, so only people alright with doing regular intimate care would apply if that was the case.

If I'm completely honest, I think there's a big push for inclusion, but in a superficial way. Real inclusion means supporting a child's individual needs so that they can be part of the mainstream school community. I left the sector a few years ago, and even then I could see that this wasn't happening. It seems to have gotten worse. 'Inclusion' all too often means the child being physically present in mainstream school but without the necessary support in place, because schools are short of money, staff, and in some cases expertise in supporting children with specific disabilities. This isn't good for anyone.

However, people are afraid of being called exclusionary if they admit that a child's needs can't be met in their school. They're afraid it'll come across like saying they dislike the child or don't want them to be part of the class, or are against the idea of children with additional needs being in mainstream schools, when that's not it at all.

Given enough money and resources, your child's needs could be met in a mainstream school. To me it seems obvious that he'd need an EHCP because he'd need an extra adult for support - but I was only a TA and I won't claim to know how local authorities actually decide these things! It may be that they're looking at the best case scenario, whereas the school is actually overstretched in any number of ways. It's not fair on you as a parent and it's not fair on your child. You're right, something's failing.

I think you've done very well OP to update this thread. Many of the comments have been awful, to the point where I'm surprised the thread wasn't taken down. I'm sorry your child had such a poor experience in their first week of school.

Regarding the above, as a teacher I honestly just find the thought of changing nappies very far from the role I trained for. I've taught for many years and it has never been asked of me. I'm not in EYFS mind, though I've done the odd stint there. I'd absolutely do it as a one off, but I simply don't think it's the teacher's role, any more than it would be a doctor's role in hospital. Teachers should be leading learning in the classroom, and there should be adequate adults to support with toileting needs. The support for children with additional needs is an absolute scandal. I appreciate we're talking about a real little boy here and so this doesn't apply to your specific situation, but on the whole teachers need to be teaching and there should be enough additional adults to allow that to happen.

Lots of issues are failing many children in mainstream education.

• There is no proper changing facilities nor changing equipment ie hoists, raised changing units, bins to dispose of the soiled nappies etc
• Many schools do not have large enough changing facilities
• A shortage of staff willing to change nappies
• No staff member should be expected to change a nappy if they don’t want to.

I left education last year as so many children were being failed by the system. I’m talking about ALL children. I have taught all year groups during my 28 year career and I can assure you in Scotland (and most likely England, Ireland and Wales the same is happening). I have watched so many parents being promised 1:1 care for their children starting school and it never happens.

Teachers are often left to deal with a class of between 25 and 30 4/5 year olds and within that class there are children who require extra support for many reasons. My last class had 3 children with toileting issues, 2 autistic children with a PDA profile and one child with physical disabilities. I had 25 children and one part time LA who was with me 2 hours a day. When I complained and asked for extra help the nutter of an HT suggested that I hold up a yellow card and “train” the NT children to hide under desks when the other children “kicked off”. Is that any positive experience for a child starting school?

While I completely understand your frustration and anger at the system, teachers and LA’s can only do so much for children with complex needs. The Local Authority doesn’t care, they throw children into mainstream education that can’t meet their needs and don’t have the staffing to ensure children are properly cared for.

I lost count of parents screaming the 2010 Disability Act at me, take it up with your Local Authority and don’t blame the teacher or the LA, we all do our best.

Personally, I’m so glad I left education, mainstream education does not benefit every child but that’s the governments fault for closing many establishments that were more suited to children’s needs with specialised staff.

I visited a friend in Australia this summer and she works in a mainstream school. I was delighted to see they had 4 nurture rooms, an immersive room, they accommodated soft starts for children, they had huge changing rooms with fully trained staff and a quiet dining room which accommodated sensory diets. It was mind blowing seeing that school and what they offered compared to the UK.

It’s not just frustrating for you OP, it’s frustrating for many school staff.

"Is it that they should but don't want to? Is it that the teachers are being pushed beyond their limits and perhaps need more funding in schools if children with these disabilities are in their setting with refusals for ehcps? What's your thought on this then? Because whatever is happening, something is falling in this system."

It's because advances in medical care and changes in societal attitudes mean that more People with disabilities survive childhood and are thought to be benefited by mainstream education. However, at the same time, we have had cuts to funding all of these services that aid them plus a hike in the cost of living.

We have more policies and regulations meaning that people can't fulfil the informal roles that they used to. You need formal training in how to change a nappy safely considering hygiene and infection control. That's why I know for a fact that it is not on any TA qualification. It's on those that specifically relate to personal care.

Many TAs work for an agency and those agencies may also prohibit them from providing personal care in general TA roles. Even if they wanted to just help out, they can't.

In one school I work with very closely, one of their 3 TAs who has had all the training to support some children with toileting needs such as nappy changes and self catherisation is leaving after this academic year. She's worked there for 30 years. Nobody will be replacing her so there are now fewer children with continence needs that they can place using their own existing staff to cover.

I cannot just get my son in to a special school like some other posters have said. He won't even be awarded an EHCP

OP, he really should, and I expect will, be awarded an EHCP. I know it can be a struggle to get one and you may need support from an advocate etc. but you really need to pursue this as a matter of urgency.

Please remember too, specialist schools aren't always necessary for SEN children.

They aren't always necessary but they can be incredibly important in making sure a child's needs are met and they thrive not survive.

There are also all sorts of specialist schools which meet all different levels of need. My child is in one. You may need to travel or even move to access one, and of course you will have to fight hard to get a place (and it is scandalous that there are so few places) but again it is possible.

As a PP said the drive for inclusion is often a drive to reduce funding. It very often isn't in the best interests of the child concerned.

Do you really believe this setting (or possibly any mainstream setting) is best for your child?

@BellaAndDave

Totally agree. It is the LA at fault not the school

I think OPs dc needs a specialist setting

Definitely isn't teacher's role

Sadly there is a massive gap between provision schools are expected to provide and what they are able to. The school I work in has three children currently who wear nappies for different reasons, only one has ehcp in place at the moment but all get changed as per their care plans. Of course it’s not a pleasant part of the job but it’s part of the job.

for “just” continence issues it is unlikely a child would get an ehcp as that would fall into the bracket of what schools are expected to be able to provide and any costs incurred could be less than the nominal £6000 figure that is applied to these things.

whether he should have an ehcp or not depends on the wider picture of his needs but from what you have posted he most certainly meets the criteria for a needs assessment which is MAY have special educational needs and MAY need special educational provision. I would do a parental application as soon as you can, look at the likes of ipsea for guides to help. If it gets refused appeal - the vast majority (over 90% in my LA!) of refusal to assess cases are overturned either at mediation or tribunal

The difficulty is that "schools" are expected to deal with incontinence issues and change nappies but "staff" are not! So, either there is a volunteer or the school employs someone specifically with that role in their contract. But they can't employ an additional person without funding, which they won't get without an EHCP!

Just to add to some of the excellent points that have been made in recent posts, because I’m in a very similar position to @InvisibleDuck and feel exactly the same. Staff who are employed as a 1-1 for a child with an EHCP or who work in a special school receive a premium in their pay to reflect the fact that they have to deal with the most unpleasant parts of being a TA on a regular basis. I think in my school TA it’s just over an extra £1000 a year which is significant when you’re on a low wage and limited by the hours of work that are available.

It is fair to expect anyone working in a school to have to deal with the occasional poo accident if that’s what’s needed to provide children with the best possible care, but it is not fair or right to expect a TA to do it on a regular basis when they are not paid for it.

In my county, class and 1:1 assistants are on the same pay scale in mainstream, it's only special school staff that receive additional ( miserly) salary.

Yep, no additional pay here. If anything it's less because they don't expect anyone level 3 or above to apply so pay as little as they can get away with.

And even if they do miraculously have the funding, it can be almost impossible to find anyone willing to take the post. One school I worked at, could not recruit a 1-1 for a severely SEN child and in the end a group of TAs did a day a week each. Far from ideal for the child but the only workable solution to providing the 1-1 care.

And you can't just " move" a classroom assistant to be a 1:1, different contracts. Indeed, even our 1:1 contracts are child specific as, if the child leaves, so does the 1:1.

Local authorities are quite happy to say that mainstream can manage, they are not the ones trying hard to support children without the staff, resources or finances to do so.

I am aware there isn’t an EHCP yet for OP’s DS but speaking more widely rather than about the OP’s situation, once there is an EHCP written correctly and with the required provision (which may take appeals, so yes it takes time) the LA is ultimately responsible for ensuring the provision is provided and it can be enforced.

Many LAs use recruitment difficulties as an excuse for why it can’t provide it. However, the provision can be funded at a higher level, potentially a much higher level. They won’t do so unless forced, sadly. I have supported many parents to force the LA to fund the 1:1 at a higher rate, sometimes at a much higher rate, when the school &/or LA state the provision can’t be provided because they can’t recruit and every single time it has resulted in an appropriate appointment.

Regarding the above, as a teacher I honestly just find the thought of changing nappies very far from the role I trained for. I've taught for many years and it has never been asked of me. I'm not in EYFS mind, though I've done the odd stint there. I'd absolutely do it as a one off, but I simply don't think it's the teacher's role, any more than it would be a doctor's role in hospital. Teachers should be leading learning in the classroom, and there should be adequate adults to support with toileting needs. The support for children with additional needs is an absolute scandal. I appreciate we're talking about a real little boy here and so this doesn't apply to your specific situation, but on the whole teachers need to be teaching and there should be enough additional adults to allow that to happen.

I agree with this. It's not what I trained for, am contracted for, or signed up for. People need to be employed specifically to fill roles that require this level of care, and councils and the government needs to fund these roles appropriately so people will actually take on the roles.

Yes it's always like that. If they had to actually care for some of the dc they may understand how difficult it can be

Yep. And we can't get 1:1 TAs because the needs are too high when combined with such miserly pay. And the school can't/won't pay more for the roles, just leaves them unfilled and keeps telling parents they can't find anyone.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/10/revealed-covert-deal-to-cut-help-for-pupils-in-england-with-special-needs

It doesn't look like things are going to get any better in the near future.

That is a really depressing read.

This makes me so fucking angry. It's so shortsighted! Many children with SEN will grow up to be functioning adults in society, paying back into the system through tax because they have built the skills needed to hold down a job - if they have the right support and education.

Deny them that support and appropriate education, they have a severely reduced chance in life. Thereby costing the government more than the ECHP provision would have in the first place.

Also trying to deny support until its a last resort. So many children will thrive with early intervention (which can be cheap) but the wait and see until crisis approach of most councils, ends up costing them more in the long run because the child then needs more costly provision!

Fucking rediculous. Abusive towards children. Neglectful. Insulting. It's absolutely abhorrent. I need stronger words to describe the system...but there isn't a strong enough word to describe how I feel about it.