AIBU to be angry at school so early in...

[misskellyb]

My son is being assessed for autism and a strong possibility of ADHD (can't assess yet as he's too young).

He has a lot of sensory processing difficulties. One of these being toileting. He has just started reception at a small, one form school and is still in nappies. He is on daily laxatives and regularly soils. Therefore he is still in nappies. He will not toilet train. If he wears pants (and sometimes even when wearing nappies - if he's in uncomfortable environments) he will withhold his wee and poo up until the point of getting so unwell he requires enemas at hospital or ends up with severe stomach pains from not weeing. When he has pants on he has a tendency to poo his pants with the overflow of poo and requires changing of his clothes and pants regularly.

He had his first day in reception yesterday. He had his nappy changed once and was introduced to the toilet but showed no interest in following his peers and using it. I'm hoping in time he will be comfortable enough to start using a toilet at school. However today, when we got home I noticed his nappy was still in his bag and his nappy hadn't been changed and was full of wee and poo. I will be raising this with the school tomorrow.

He also struggles with transitions, one of these being transitions with clothing. For example on a morning he for some reason refuses to change out of his pyjamas and will meltdown to the point that some days he has to stay in pyjamas. He struggles going from season to season changing from summer clothing (shorts and short sleeved t shirts to jumpers and trousers and vice versa). As you know it's extremely hot and he was left in his school jumper all day at school today. I confronted the school when he walked out in a jumper and The school said they asked him to change out of his jumper but he said no, so he was left to play all day in a wooly jumper with a soiled, wet nappy( I was unaware of the nappy being unchanged at this time).

As he does have additional needs I've asked the teacher if they will feed back to me regularly how he is getting on as his speech is somewhat delayed. The teacher said that they have 30 other children so this isn't possible. AIBU to be abit annoyed about this? I acknowledge their high numbers of children however surely for SEN children they can find a way to prioritise feeding back to parents, weekly, fortnightly, monthly? She said no news is good news so if I hear nothing all is fine. But the news that my sons nappy wasn't changed today and the news that he wouldn't change out of his school jumper is surely news I should be made aware of and not having to find out for myself?

AIBU to be annoyed they left him in a dirty nappy all day? Especially in this heat! They have a duty of care and this is just neglect. He will be prone to infections if this carries on and possibly bullying if other children smell or notice the nappy. The school have had multiple meetings with me regarding his needs and his continence issues. I spoke the school on his first day yesterday to make sure the reception teachers were aware he needs his nappy changed and support around toileting and they assured me this is fine. They also have clinic letters from paediatricians and the continence team outlining that my son will need regular toilet breaks and support around toileting and changing.

I try everything at home to encourage toileting. But toileting issues have been his whole life. We've tried everything and I mean, everything. To the point where no more reward charts, sensory toys, or bribery will encourage him and it's just a waiting game for it to be on his terms but in the process I don't want him facing difficulties at school for this and personal hygiene issues.

You'd think second day in they'd be on the ball as well and I'm just worried this is the start of problems to come.

Schools don’t have an extra 6k - they have to pay for the first 6k for 1:1 out of there own budgets. If 1:1 support will cost more than 6k then they get additional money after they’ve paid the first 6k.

Because you hope that once they are in the system, the teaching staff and SEN advisors, the LA SaLT, OT and EP will see how ridiculous it is and start to get behind you and push for the right place at a highly specialist placement.

The parent might also be exhausted and need respite and if the LA has put funds in place to support a child in mainstream it can be better that sat home with exhausted parents out of sight. They may not be accessing the curriculum, or friends but might be getting sensory input and care. We had one child who had physio, Salt and OT everyday and had a 1:1 TA who helped with toileting and did lots of sensory play and speech work.

I have seen very high needs supported at mainstream whilst in waiting list for specialist, but not quite as high as this poor child to be fair.

There are big inaccuracies in what people are presenting as rights. Here is a comprehensive article that explains your actual rights and the obligation of staff to change nappies.
https://www.theschoolrun.com/managing-toileting-problems-primary-schools#:~:text=It's%20a%20widely%20believed%20myth,a%20child%20who%20needs%20changing.

"It’s a widely believed myth that school staff aren’t allowed to change children’s nappies, pull-ups or underwear, but this isn’t true.

Neither are schools required to provide two staff members to help a child who needs changing. ‘In fact, this is actively discouraged, so schools should not refuse to change or clean a child if only one member of staff is available to leave the classroom,’ Brenda explains.

‘For safeguarding reasons, staff should make sure another member of staff is aware that they are going to change a child, and is in the vicinity and visible or audible.

‘It’s also good practice to ensure that all aspects of continence care in school are documented in advance, for instance using an Individual Healthcare Plan (IHP), making sure parental consent is obtained for named carers to help with intimate care.’

Bear in mind that individual staff members can refuse to help change children who have wet or soiled themselves. ‘It’s the school’s responsibility to identify members of staff who will attend to children’s continence needs,’ Brenda adds."

@hamsterchump the only thing disgusting is your comment.

There is nothing wrong with what @hamsterchump said. I always refused to change nappies as did other staff. As I said upthread, unions were involved a few times during my teaching career as LAs refused to change nappies or do intimate care. If other school staff were happy to change nappies that was their choice but I and many others chose not to do it.

The school HAS to find some way of cleaning and changing any SEN child with continence issues. It is a legal duty under the Equality Act- it is a reasonable adjustment for a disabled person.

If the teachers/ta’s refuse to do it that is the school management’s issue to resolve. “We think it’s gross so no”, is not a moral or legal response.

Do we think we could remember that there is a real mother and real child at the centre of this situation and stop using such inflammatory language as 'disgusting', please? I cannot fathom the motivations of posters who are determined to describe this very difficult situation in such a judgmental way.

People who find normal bodily functions so gross really probably aren’t best suited to primary schools, especially not early years!

But this is why an intimate care plan is essential as it will highlight which staff members are responsible for changes and at what times during the day they will be done - with allowances for unexpected changes obviously.

"If the teachers/ta’s refuse to do it that is the school management’s issue to resolve. “We think it’s gross so no”, is not a moral or legal response."

They'll have to look for someone willing to provide personal care to the student but there are no guarantees anyone will take that job.

You see, many people choose to work in mainstream schools because they don't want to meet intimate care needs. It isn't in the job description (maybe that needs to change) and that's why people can opt out of doing it.

The people who take jobs willing to provide personal care often want to just provide one to one care for said child. Their issue with support in a mainstream school is they end up being a TA because kids naturally gravitate towards all the adults in the class. And they're not paid to do it and might have purposely chosen a role that didn't involve general teaching assistance.

So they are reluctant to take jobs that involve the personal care they want to do in a mainstream setting. They'll also be providing similar care to those who have similar needs without the support in place and then that's a whole issue in itself.

I know one child has carers that come in to school like they would at home and provide personal care, but they come at set times (to the best of their ability). It does mean sometimes having a soiled nappy for long periods and disruption to the day as the carers just make it part of their rounds and may be delayed with another client. I think they come at morning play and after lunch. The problem with after lunch is that the child often soils after they've changed that nappy and isn't then changed until hometime by a parent.

@Appleontherocks

As an experienced TA in mainstream and special schools working in special schools on the whole is a lot more pleasant. More staff, more resources, more inclusive etc. They have proper changing facilities.

Working as a 1-1 in a mainstream school is generally hell on Earth. Yesterday for example one year one child was screaming and kicking loudly outside of a year 5 classroom. The pressure on that 1–1 to try and deescalate is immense. If a child is like this in a special school no one bats an eyelid because it is what it is.

Honestly it’s hell on Earth. Yesterday was my last ever day doing primary 1-1. I simply just haven’t got it in me any longer.

Oh and trying to change a year 1s pull up yesterday in the heat with no changing facilities whilst he repeatedly kicked out and scratched me was hell on Earth. I was squashed in a tiny EYFS toilet thinking what on Earth am I doing even contemplating doing this job?

Yep, and this disgusting attitude and lack of empathy is why so many disabled children and children with SEN are denied access to education.

There SHOULD be enough special school places and there SHOULD be enough funding for 1-2-1 support in mainstream schools, but since the government doesn’t value these children’s education they are at the mercy of the over worked and underpaid school staff. Some of them will bend over backwards to do all they can with limited resources (these people are a God send), but sadly too many are people like you who frankly don’t give a shit about the education of the most vulnerable children in society.

@ThanksItHasPockets

Please have a look at @Itslosenotloose 's posts on this thread.

Can you try and remember that it is real people that the OP and yourself want to be subjected to doing such disgusting and unpleasant tasks.

So no it is not "inflammatory language" to call something that is disgusting, disgusting. Just because you and OP want the school/LA etc to force people to do such disgusting tasks.
Your / her very insistence on this, and disregard for other people's dignity, is exactly why it needs to be resaid.

Other people mustn't be forced to do something disgusting if not in their job specs. They are not servants.
Other people are people too.

We get it, you don’t want to deal with poo. That’s fine, no one is asking you to. I don’t think anyone is saying any particular individual should have to or that it should be some kind of universal obligation on all school staff. You don’t have to be so incredibly insensitive about it. This isn’t a hypothetical “what should reasonably be in the job description of a TA?” thread, it’s a thread about someone’s individual and much loved child. It’s bloody hard enough to send your vulnerable child into school, relying on the care and kind intent of others, without being repeatedly told that people find aspects of your child’s care disgusting.

I have massive issues and phobias around blood and needles - but I’m not obnoxious enough to find a thread from a worried parents about having a diabetic child not being properly cared for in school and then use judgemental language to bang on about how awful it would be if I hypothetically had to help that child test their blood sugars.

No one is forced to do it- it’s a stupid loophole whereby the school has a legal obligation to make sure it’s done, but no teacher can be forced to do it. So it isn’t done… and the child is failed. Then the parent is forced to go into school multiple times a day (thereby being unable to earn a living) or the child is left in inhumane conditions. All this is in breach of the Equality Act 2010 by the way. But nothing will be done about that.

Or like me they are de registered and the parent again can’t earn a living and has the full responsibility of educating the child. This is a win for the government because they then don’t have to spend any money, and a win for the school because it removes a problem for them. Whether is good for the child is not something the system bothers about… and the parent is totally forgotten.

@misskellyb and her son deserve better than that. We all deserve better- any child can become disabled through illness or accident- this isn’t something hypothetical that happens to other people.

@Dilapidateddilapidate

It's not a "loophole" as such.
It's because people wouldn't want to do this disgusting task, only by dire need. That they really really really need a job, any job.
Again look @Itslosenotloose posts.

It's like saying Ah the factory workers in Bangladesh voluntarily do their jobs.
Yes but the jobs are terrible and they shouldn't have to do them, in a just world.

Similarly with jobs like @Itslosenotloose , dealing with other people's shit.

So no - I think that the school should not have this legal obligation at all.
But yes I'm clearly aware that they do, and that the OP "has got them" as such on that.
But I don't think it's right.

I have read them. As the parent of a KS1 child with intimate care needs they are difficult to read but I have made myself do so, and reflect on them, because it is important that I am mindful of the adults who help to care for my children. As a teacher myself I am probably more conscious than many of the rights and working conditions of school staff.

You can't have read my posts if you think I want to 'force' anybody to carry out intimate care tasks.

Having thought further about it I think my primary objection is to the barely contained subtext of contempt for those remarkable staff who are prepared to provide intimate care. I agree with you wholeheartedly that people are not servants and I find it genuinely humbling that there are people who are willing to carry out tasks which are so repellent to many in order to enable a disabled child access education.

I maintain that we should be able to have a conversation about balancing the rights of the child with the rights of the staff without repeated expressions of disgust.

It is a loophole legally speaking.

So by your argument no one should have a job that involves personal care for a disabled person?! Because it’s disgusting and no one wants to do it? All the people who care for children and adults, nurses, doctors, carers, nursery nurses, special school teachers etc- none of them are there because they value the work they do?

So all caring work is an imposition on people who are there because they are desperate and is akin to exploitation in sweatshops??

Should all the disabled people just be put down then so that the long suffering rest of you don’t have to deal with how disgusting our needs are?! You are a fucking disgrace.

@ThanksItHasPockets

You really haven't read @Itslosenotloose posts at all if you say that last sentence.
I have the opposite of contempt for the people who find themselves forced, for the need of a job, to do such tasks.
I have absolute compassion and wish for such tasks not to ever be made part of any job.

That's why I think it must be absolutely highlighted how disgusting these tasks are - dealing with other people's shit.
So as to try to get through to the keyboard warriors, in their whatever other jobs, where they don't have to deal with other people's disgusting shit - and spout whatever about legal obligations.

(Btw I know my perspective sounds unusual and hence could be thought of as disingenuous. This is the internet, with people from many places - some of us have lived under abject communism. Some of us have read Marx and Lenin and realised some of the things they said weren't all wrong; and the abjectness came from the "implementation".)

Specifically dealing with someone else's shit, no.

I think it should never be part of the job description. Because all people have the right to human dignity, not just those being cared for.
If someone wants to voluntarily do that tasks, fine.
But not being in the job description.

So no one should ever have to deal with anyone else’s bodily functions bar their own child?

What’s your plan if you ever end up in a major road accident like the one that left my friend unable to use a toilet, clean herself, or in fact move her limbs much for a few months? What about if you end up with severe dementia and doubly incontinent like my grandparent towards the end of their life? Should we just leave you to rot?

I don't have much more to say to you beyond a genuine question.

There are adults and children in our society who are incontinent. Are you suggesting that these people should have no access to support for intimate care?

Does this extend to a midwife, who clears away a mother's faeces during childbirth, or a nurse?

I think some posters have missed that this thread has moved to the SEN board and the discourse should change accordingly.