Slumber Party...The Sleep Deprivation Support Thread

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

We're all in this together... how about a bit of mutual schadenfreude/grim humour/shared agony as we blearily stumble through another day...

Can I join you? I have just posted about DD's dummy issues elsewhere... she had just started to become a reasonable sleeper dammit (was only waking once or twice a night for feeds), but suddenly she is waking all night needing the dummy replugged and then spitting it out again! Last night was typical, she woke round 1.30, 2.30, 3.45 (and didn't resettle till 4.20), fed at 5, awake again at 6.30 and then up for the day at 7.20. Also I had trouble getting to sleep as DH (my bed heater!) had gone to sleep in the spare room saying he needed to kip before important work stuff today, so I was cold - and then couldn't sleep between some of her wakeups as I was stressing about how to get her to sleep better!

Unfortunately she has been like this all week so I am starting to feel like a total zombie... we already tried cold turkey (using baby whisperer methods, shh-pat etc) but it didn't seem to work and we cracked after several nights of long screaming sessions while we tried in vain to get her back to sleep, so now she is back on the dummy but still can't keep it in Now I am trying the Pantley pull-off thing, but not finding that easy either, she seems to wake every time I pull it out, and I don't usually manage it at all during the night, as it is too dark and I am too shattered to sit waiting for her to be nearly asleep ready to pull it out again!

I am soo jealous of DH, he is a much better sleeper so even when he isn't in the spare room I end up doing all the replugging as it takes him so long to wake up that I get more sleep if I just do it (of course he is used to NOT having to wake up when she cries, as she is BF and was only waking for milk before). Still if she keeps on like this I think I will have to go into the spare room for a night and just get him to bring her to me when she needs her feed... I wish she would discover her thumb like DS did when we had this problem with him, but although she happily sucks her fingers during the day she seems to have no clue about using them to go to sleep!

Congrats hiccups and PDW on good sleeps. It's nice to know they can happen! We had a better night than the night before- at least I could count the number of wakes (4 I think) but still feeling completely washed out and, what with DS' feeding being even more up the spout than ever (but that's for another thread), still feeling sorry for myself. Hoping the Spanish sun and DH being around all next week will lift my spirits. DS, on the other hand, is happy as, and having just discovered his fist, is trying to shove it as far into his mouth as possible while occasionally bring a bit sick on it and smiling through. Wonder if I should try it...?

Welcome MyNameIs! I saw your other thread but don't have any words of wisdom. DS will sometimes accept a dummy and we're becoming more reliant on ig to settle him in the night so suspect we may well end up where you are. I know Inmaculada had some dummy issues- sure she'll be alng soon with some good advice.

IC- how did the non swaddling go? We still swaddle but he is constantly getting out of it now and I spend half the night rewrappong him. But he's such a flippy fidgety thing, I can't imagine bring able to leave him, in PDW's words, unstraightjacketed...

We didn't have so much of a problem with unswaddling, funnily enough... DS never liked it so went straight into grobags, but it helped DD a lot at first so we did it up to about 2 1/2 or 3 months I think; but then she got too big for our swaddle wraps and kept escaping, so we put her into grobags too. I think the grobags are good to move to from swaddling, as they still give a bit of the same snugly-held feeling but let them move their arms if they want. Might be worth trying if you haven't already?

Sounds like you earned your night's sleep, PDW! Glad you had a better night too, hiccups.

Well, DD's first sleep-stretch sans swaddle went fine, she woke towards 11 (fairly standard) so I fed her, but she cried when I tried to put her back down, which is very unusual, she generally just whimpers. After trying to repeat the process without success, I gave up and took her back into bed with me again, having vowed not to (path of least resistance - ah well).
Swaddling isn't a good idea when co-sleeping, so I put her in her Peke Moe sleeping bag (luckily, it's cooled down a lot here otherwise she would have been too hot)and tucked her in beside me. She did a fair amount of suckling off and on, but was generally pretty relaxed with it and after one longer resettle (nappy change) around 06.00, slept until 07.40. Although it wasn't an ideal night, I actually feel fairly rested, so that's okay. Bit concerned that all this feeding to sleep and bed-sharing will come back to bite my arse further down the line, but at the moment it's the best way to get both of us a reasonably amount of rest.

Welcome MNIIM (great nickname!!! Love the Princess Bride...)
god, I feel for you with the dummy thing. Had that a few nights with DD too until I decided to persevere with Operation Dummy Remove - kind of what you're doing - and gradually she got used to not having it permanently in her mouth during sleep. It took several weeks though and involved a fair amount of re-plugging and trying to stay awake to take it off her (not always successfully). Now she's self-weaned herself off the dummy entirely (pretty much) and I actually miss it because it was ACE for settling her. Now, only Mummy's breast will do, which is a bit out of the frying pan into the fire in some respects...
The other thing I would do is tuck the dummy inside the top of DD's swaddle so even if it started to drop out of her mouth it was kept in place (not firmly - she could still spit it if she wanted, just prevented the dummy from dropping out so easily)
Good luck - it's a sod, all the replugging, isn't it? I fear a lot of persistence is the only thing that will get her off the dummy, but if anyone has other suggestions, we'd love to hear them....

Back on the subject of swaddling, the Peke Moe is another good transition from full swaddling because it allows for fairly free movement, but arms are still relatively contained (they can get them to their mouth though, but through the cloth) and has the advantages of sleeping bags ie legs can't kick out the bottom (and, in this case, hands don't get cold).

OK, here's a thought. How about we each list the things we do as part of our missions to get our LO's and ourselves to sleep/sleep better? That way we can nick borrow each other's techniques.

So, in no particular order:

-I try and make sure DD is reasonably stimulated when she's awake, either physically or mentally or both to help her get tired enough to snooze when she's ready (doesn't work if your LO is too easily over-stimulated). A walk in the sling counts as she loves looking at everything as we go.

-I try and get out for a couple of walks a day with DD (or DH takes her). Apparently plenty of daylight is supposed to promote better sleep at night

-swaddling. Off and on, she doesn't always need it. And the drawback is late night re-swaddling when she kicks free. Still, it does tend to help her settle.

-bedtime routine of naked kicking time, bath, massage, lullaby, feed. Try to aim for 19.00 bedtime and will drop steps if DD seems very tired.

-encourage daytime naps. Look out for tired signs and get her down ASAP, usually in her pram (makes her more mobile, don't want to be trapped in all the time). Sometimes need to swaddle her. I'm afraid she is mostly fed to sleep, although usually wakes/semi-wakes when I put her down so does that count as sleepy-but-not-asleep? I try and do the Pantley Pull Off, but probably leave it too long.

-gently stroke down her nose to encourage her to close her eyes. Only works if she's already sleepy, but can be very effective.

-try and put her in the sling for a while every day. She seldom naps in there as is too interested in looking around, but I've heard it's good for keeping a baby calm, which is helpful when trying to encourage sleep.

-Dr Karp's 5S soothing technique. Still reasonably effective, although it may take up to ten mins to really work. I often stand up with DD swaddled while at the breast and rock her while shushing (especially good if she's being fussy about settling into a pre-sleep feed) and encouraging her to suckle.

-pram-rocking. DH mostly does this.

-avoid caffeine and booze (me) - don't know how much effect they have, but don't want to risk it. Likewise avoid chocolate in the evening.

-try and make sure the final nap finishes no later than 17.00. Having said that, I don't wake her up as it can have bad repercussions. But it's rare she sleeps longer at that time, anyway.

-Stop looking at the clock, especially overnight.

-try and keep myself as relaxed as possible so I've got a better chance of getting back to sleep myself once DD has been settled. Ditto try and sort out my IBS (thankfully it's much better now).

-tell myself it won't last for ever and chant the MN mantra THIS TOO WILL PASS in an effort not to get stressed about all the missed sleep.

Please add yours, I'm always open to trying other things...

Blimey! I don't really have any strategies maybe that's where I'm going wrong!!!

DD pretty much has to fit in with what's going on with the other 2 in the day re school runs, groups etc. That's not really a problem though as she will only sleep on me, have ditched the pram as she screamed in it and embraced the wonderful world of babywearing! So in the day she just sleeps in the sling - with boob in mouth obviously!

She has no routine at all, which was what I was going to ask everyone dd is nearly 5 months, how is/was your routine at that age? Other 2 were having sleeps in cot during day by now. It's really easy to not notice the time when she sleeps on me so I don't really know how much she's having but I guess an average of 3 hours ish.

In the evening we eat at 5-5.30, then usually have bath with the girls. Put them to bed around 7-7.30 then sit down and feed dd. 9 out of 10 times she will feed to sleep at that time, but won't tolerate being put down so stays on me (usually attached) till I go to bed around 9ish.

I've been trying to lie her slightly away from me at that time as she is the most konked out she gets and try to have a couple of hours of her not touching me! Then when she wakes in the night I just feed her next to me till she drops off again. Sometimes wonder if I should wake myself up better and feed her on 2 maybe 3 sides so she is more full to see if she goes longer but I never really wake up properly to remember! She normally has I guess 3 feeds in the night.

If she allows it we get up around 7 to get dd1&2 ready for school and off we go again!

This is why I really struggle if we have a bad night. It's not so much the lack of sleep as the CONSTANT need for contact. Have tried her with a dummy, she wouldn't take it, no signs of her sucking her thumb so she has to have boob!!! Can't imagine her ever going to sleep any other way - other 2 weren't like this which is why I'm at a bit of a loose end!

Dr William Sears would be proud of you, hiccups!

My DD is heading back in that direction (night-time attachment) after seemingly not needing it since she was about 8 weeks. She is now 19 weeks (15 corrected).

Routine - well, the bedtime routine as detailed above.
Getting up varies a bit, but personally I'm happiest if we can edge it after 07.00. She used to sleep in until about 09.30, but it's been a while since she's got up that late.

Otherwise, the naps happen when she seems to need them. The current pattern is about 3-4 naps per day, two of around 40 mins or so in the morning/lunchtime and one longer one (up to 2 hours) in the mid-afternoon. Mind you, this is this week's routine. Last week was slightly different, next week will probably be different again.

We usually go out for a walk with the sling between 17.00 and 18.00.

That's as routine as it gets at Casa IC! But we don't have other LOs to fit around.

Never heard of him, but I'm glad someone thinks I'm doing it right!

Hi can I join?

My darling DS was born at 30 weeks. Despite him being in hospital for the first 6 weeks I still had to get up once a night to express. In fact I had to express 4 hourly and travel on two trains daily just to see him. Then he came home. At first he was on a 4 hourly routine as could only manage bottle rather than breast. Then I weaned onto the breast. He now wakes up once [good night] to three times and ending up in our bed [bad night].

I joke but could cry; the last time I had a full night uninterrupted sleep was 11/10/09.

I am soooo tired

Hmm, strategies - let me think:

• Try to get DD to have at least some of her naps in the crib (and she always goes down for the night in the crib too)

• We have always avoided feeding to sleep, and put her down while still awake

• Dummy was great for teaching her how to sleep (though not so great now she keeps losing it!)

• Sling was also good for naps round the house if she couldn't settle in bed, though we are using it less as she gets bigger and heavier (and better at settling in bed, at least when she has the dummy). And we use the pushchair lots for naps as well especially when out and about with DS.

• I have bought blackout linings for the curtains to try and reduce early-morning wakings (they are quite cheap on Amazon!)

• We have a bedtime routine of sorts (bath, story with big brother etc) and at least a few cues for naptime when it's in her bed (drawing curtains and putting in grobag).

• If I am feeling desperate I sometimes put a little drop of lavender oil on a tissue and tuck it in the lining of her crib, not sure whether it helps or not though!

• She does have a routine of sorts (at 4 months) - usually up around 7 (give or take half an hour), and feeds roughly every 4 hours at the moment, plus a dreamfeed around 10.30pm. Bedtime routine starts around 7 (with the last day feed) and in bed for 7.30. Her naps are not in much of a routine though, partly because her feeding pattern has just changed (she has suddenly stretched from feeding roughly every 3 to every 4 hours, but the naps haven't really adjusted in with that yet), but more importantly because we also have a toddler DS, and poor DD has to get fitted round him so often ends up being dragged to toddler groups etc when she should be sleeping. I do try to allow for her naps as much as possible, but it's very hard to combine them with getting out and about with DS, and we can't just stay in all the time or we would all be bouncing off the walls! I do think this is one reason for our sleep problems though, that she is overtired from not enough quality day sleep, so am trying to improve that but it is hard!

Hello mrspear - you have my sympathy, that sounds horrible having DS in hospital without you for so long! And well done for getting bf established when he came home. Not sure how to help with the sleep thing, but I hope it gets better for you soon!

I second that mrspear congratulations and you deserve a good pat on the back! Just wanted to let you all know I'm sat here on my own!!! dd has nodded off in bed and finally released my boob so I've snuck off! Not sure how long it will last but I'm watching Springwatch Unsprung eating custard creams and catching up on MN!!! If it makes anyone feel any better she has been clamped on most of the day so I think I deserve a bit of a break, trouble is I'm really knackered and want to crawl back into bed really!

Weird how reassuring it is to hear about other people having a crap time with sleep... I have 4 dcs too and between all 4 I am totally knackered!!! Like PDW my 2 yr old goes to childminder 1 and a half days, allowing me to BF. Not sure how I'm going to manage with the summer hols which are coming up in a couple of weeks.

PotPourri join the National Trust, it's well worth the money with kids (and get a sling to feed in if you haven't already) right I'm off to bed wish me luck!

I'm in historic scotland -much better as my kids are not the 'no touching' type which I have found to be terribly stressful with the National trust! LOL Will be off to bed just as soon as father and son finishes...

Hm well I did manage to settle DD without the dummy tonight (well she had it at first but I eventually managed to pull it out at the last moment without waking her, as per the Pantley method, is what I mean). But it took several tries, and then the first time I had to re-do it after 10 mins as she startled awake again... then she slept till a short while ago but then woke again, and DH went and put the dummy in (don't think he bothered trying to remove it again though...). I think this is going to be another rough night. But DH doesn't need the spare room tonight so I have told him if it gets too bad I am going there and he will have to bring her to me for her feed!

Only thing is I have a feeling if he is left to it on his own he will just give her the dummy and not try the removal thing, as he likes his sleep too much; so I have the choice, either catch up on sleep a bit or make progress with the long-term dummy removal, but probably not both...

Hi mrspear - poor knackered you - welcome to the Poor Knackered Us club of baby mums....

I think it's worth revising your definition of a good night's sleep as some of the stress of not getting a good stretch is the constant disappointed hope when it doesn't happen. I've actually stopped trying to add up the hours of kip I get now. If I feel OK the next day and reasonably rested (not expecting to be full of beans or anything), despite the fragmented sleep, then I count that as an all right night. I think it helped me when I accepted that a full night's sleep simply won't happen for me for the forseeable future, that I'm not alone in dealing with this, that other people have survived it and one day I will look back on it as part of my history.
Oh, having insomnia and IBS and lying awake for hours beside DD also helped me - when these improved, I felt a lot more grateful that I could pick up bits and bobs of sleep between DD's awakenings, rather than wasting valuable kip time stressing and feeling miserable about it. Basically, I started appreciating what sleep I can get.

Anyway, it's tough and I feel for everyone having to cope. Having more kids to deal with as well is even worse - I've got it much easier compared to those with toddlers etc. to look after (and I want another child...?! must be mad!!)

MyNameIs - your dummy story sounds familiar! I went through weeks of that type of scenario before DD decided she didn't want the dummy anymore.

Last night DD was in her own little nest until about 02.15 when I gave up and took her in with me. Result, I picked up some sleep until we had a nappy changing frenzy at about 06.00. Then grabbed a bit more before she woke for the day at 08.00.

Sleep grabbing is helping me retain my sanity!

Hi, MNIIM and mrsspear .

Well, I feel entitled to stay on this thread after yesterday AND last night: no daytime sleep apart from half and hour in the sling for schoolrun. As soon as we arrived home and I stopped walking in a purposeful manner he was awake...
Last night would not settle at all until 1.30am , then feed @ 2, 3.30 and 5. He has been sleeping since but I had to get up at 6.30 to start the day for the others. again.

Re dummies: he just does not really like it at all. I can 'sneak' it in when he is really sleepy and just sort of hanging on the breast without actually doing anything. He wakes up the very second the dummy falls out though, so I have tried to shore it up with a muslin etc but really not working for us . There have been considerations whether Duck tape or Superglue could be deployed ...

I have nothing to add to all the strategies above, wow, you are all well experienced sleep warriors!
Drs Sears/Karp (and Jack Newman for BFing issued) are My Heroes - and respec' to hiccup to being that attached to her babe. I do get touched out at times...

Right, my master beckons, toodles!

Hi mrspear. sorry you've had to join! And sorry you've got a reason to stay PDW. we actually had a better night last night after a grim day and evening, and got in one stretch from 11.30 to 5. Amazing. Suspect it was a one off.

We've ended up going down the Routine path, having had none at all for the first ten weeks and my not really being keen on it. But it does seem to have had some impact on day sleeps at least (although not for last two days and can still only get 45 mins out of him at a time. Hoping the longer sleeps might come with age...As his ability to stay up for more than an hr and a quarter without getting tired and wired. Routine is pretty restricting though.

No great tips to add. We worked out that he settles better slept on his side so he often goes off like that then we tip him on his back. I'd love to be able to bf him to sleep but since our feeds are battles, never reasly happens apart from occassionally at night. So we've had to go down the putting gown awake route, with lots of patting. A very dark room and a sheet over the part of the cot where his head is also helps as any visual stimulation keeps him up.

I am going to try and embrace IC's approach of not stressing about my sleep (although won't come naturally..). At some point, this will be a distant memory.. Off on the hols today so routine is out the window and so, I suspect, is sleep! Good sleeping weeks all.

Sorry, bit rude - did I not say hi to potpouree? Apologies, I blame it on the lack of sleep

Sleep warriors, PDW - great term, I shall adopt it forthwith. Ugh, poor you, ain't it always the way that a decent night or two then gives way to a shitty one...? I suppose the glass half-full way of looking at it would be a shitty night or two then leads to a better one (well, I'm trying to be optimistic)

11.30 to 5, SAA!! Fab! Have a lovely holiday.

My "try not to stress about sleep" isn't always easy for me to fulfill either, but I figure there are worse things (when you're in a sleep deprived depressed state, that can be hard to imagine at times...)
Well, I'm in a good mood today. I may not be so chirpy about it tomorrow (!)

Ended up bed-sharing again last night from about 02.20. Picked up a few Zs along the way though (not enough, but hey...). Did I mention that already? Brain is addled....

Oh, I did say that already....sorry!

Dr Sears is the attachment parenting guru, by the way. PDW you and I have the same heroes...

Sorry potpouree I failed to say hi too! My parenting guru is 'whatever works' which means I end up with a ragbag of everything. I think it's called inconsistent parenting... Oops. My poor little DS. right, must stop procrastinating with the packing. How can such a little being need so much stuff??!

Rude here as well, sorry, hello potpouree!

Spent 2 hours in bed with DS4 this afternoon (other kids at school/childminder) and he slept a fair bit of that but only with constant 'input' from me: boob, patting, dummy, all required repeatedly.

Also did shopping trip with screaming baby in pram (this was after a 1 hour feed and 30min sleep in my arms, with minifeed on wakening so I thought I could risk leaving the house...), did my shopping pushing pram with him on my arm, ran home, he fell asleep just before our house so I kept walking. Walked a good 45 min, got home, parked him in the garden, opened door - and he started screaming. He clearly has a movement detector built in somewhere...

We co-slept all of last night in the bed in his room as putting down just did not work. I gave up after the umpteenth attempt...

And re gurus: surely they should all the treated like a buffet breakfast? You take what you like and ignore the rest....

Roll on tonight... I am beginning to dread the evenings quite a bit .

Thanks PD but trust me its far from intentional and I wasn't like it with the other 2 .

Just wanted to pass on something I was told by LLL leader that has really stuck with me;

If you take an average life as 80 years and measure each year as 1cm on a tape measure (go on now you have to get a tape measure) then assume that by the time they are - let's say 4 (?!) they are sleeping well, look at the size of those 4 years (hopefully less!) and compare it to the rest of your life.

It makes the THIS TOO SHALL PASS mantra all the more significant.

Just had the thought that it's quite interesting we have all been doing quite different approaches (co-sleeping vs crib, swaddling and dummies vs none, routine vs random etc etc!) and all have different specific problems, but are all getting equally bad sleep! Goes to show that there's no such thing as the "perfect" way to do it I suppose...

Every baby is unique, bless their cotton socks... so all respond to different things, I s'pose. Mind you, anyone read Baby Wisdom by Deborah Jackson? She's very pro close contact nurture and co-sleeping, but it's an interesting anthropological comparison of different methods of baby care across the world and through history. The chapter on sleep is especially interesting and in many ways quite reassuring. ie it's a Western industrialised cultural thing to expect and require 8 hours of deep, largely uninterrupted sleep per night. Many other cultures seem to handle light sleep much better and don't regard erratic baby sleep patterns as problematic as we do.
Anyway, how nice to know our exhaustion is a cultural construct, I feel quite revived

Managed to re-introduce the dummy a bit last night by replacing my nipple for the dummy while still cradling DD, then gently transferring her into her nest. Worked reasonably well and she spat it without waking quite quickly each time. Still doing 2-hour stints, though . Didn't come in with me until 05.30 though.

PDW...oh dear. Your baby clearly sees himself as belonging to one of the African tribes described by DJ in her book. Which isn't very helpful when you're with the rest of us here in the good ole industrialised west. Sending you solidarity vibes.

Can understand why they used to dose babies with opiates to make them sleep (also in the book) - among other things that made my eyebrows zoom upward.

Nice one, Hiccups - I will definitely think about that advice in the dark early hours of wakefulness (!)