Refugee Guest puts 5 yr old to bed too late

[No1pugmum]

We’ve been happily hosting a refugee and her son for 18 months. He was 3 when they joined us, now 5. When they arrived. he regularly went to bed after 10pm and she asked me to help him have an earlier bedtime after I explained how it wasn't good for anyone that he was staying up so late. That worked and he was going to bed earlier. Fast forward to now. He’s in Reception, but he’s regularly up at 8:30, sometimes even later, on a school day. On Sunday he was still up and watching telly at 8:30 and, last night, I got home from taking my older daughter out and he was still up at 8pm, watching telly, not fed and still in his school uniform. I told her I was concerned with his late bedtimes and he should be in bed by 7pm. Her response was to say she can’t put him to bed earlier because she’s got online courses that need to be done at a certain time as other people are involved and the times can’t be changed. I appreciate she wants to better herself, but I don’t think she realises how much a late bedtime could be affecting her son’s development and well being. Should I continue to try to advise, or butt out? I feel like I’m failing him if it continues. Any advice is appreciated.

I can’t find anything relating to bedtimes, and do find this odd assumption to make. Yes I don’t do 7pm bedtimes myself, but surely a family doing what works for them will be what makes them happy. I imagine they still spend time together and eat together, kids are then happy because they’re getting the amount of sleep that’s right for them. Parents are getting some needed down time.
Your way isn’t always the best way.
And you do know uk is higher than Portugal, Spain and Italy on the happiness index.

I have lived abroad in one of the places known for later bedtimes, and yes I agree this is a huge generalization (and romanticisation 🤣).

And lots of kids play out here after dinner time, gardens are full of screaming children when it’s warmer, and we’re often on the beach until dark in the summer which isn’t unusual amongst our friends.
But some children go to bed at 730 or whatever and that’s fine too. I’m sure they’ve also had a ‘fulfilling day of genuine family bonding and playtime’. Assuming otherwise is a bit far fetched. E.g. my friends family are early risers and all get up at 530/6 to go for a bike ride together, or run! Their child is very sporty as are they, and they love getting out as a family together in the mornings. They then all go to bed early by some standards. This is what works for them though and what makes them happy!

@Orangetigereye Really? I genuinely can't say I hear British children playing outside past 9, 10, 11pm.

It's truly so weird how you're the only one going to bat so furiously against a very un-controversial claim: having more relaxed family time in the evening might be less rigid and stressful for everyone. And of course, there are benefits in the morning too.

Whether IRL or on MN, you hear British parents bemoaning the after dinner/bedtime routine as if it's so stressful and rigid! And then they have to wake up at 5/6am to feed their children...

Btw, I grew up in a country where school starts very early - at 630 am. Children often skip breakfast and/or have trouble waking up, and parents don't start work till 8 or 9 but also have to rush with the kids.

I'm certainly not going to furiously argue against anyone who points out that the British way of starting school later, at a more relaxed time that fits with children and adult's natural lifestyles, makes a little more sense.

Yes, there may be exceptions, like your friend's amazing sporty family who are all raring with excitement to cycle at 5/6am, but I think we can safely assume MOST families aren't going to be like your friend's family.

Not past 10 no. But after 9 wouldn’t be extreme in the summer no. I find it weird that you’re trying to claim British families are unhappy, when most are doing what works for them. For us that’s a 930 bedtime. You seem convinced your way is superior, I’m just trying to put across a balanced view. And it’s not just British families either, you’ll find the same in many western countries.
And school starting at 630, children unable to get up and missing breakfast sounds pretty unhappy to me.

Meant to tag you @skygradient

British culture = bad
Rest of the World brilliant.

I think it’s more
British culture reflects British life / values
Other countries culture reflects their life / values.

Here In France, the working day is long, and the school hours reflect this. The easy access to state funded childcare means both parents work, and there are very few SAHM to do school pickups in the middle of the afternoon. Long days are driven by the importance placed on lunch and it being the main meal of the day. At nursery & primary school my kids had 2,25 hours break at lunchtime !! and as a result finished school at 4:30 having started at 8am.

Because of the long working hours, evening meals don’t happen until 7:30 / 8pm. Because this is the cultural norm, children are encouraged / expected to nap in the afternoon up to the age of 4-5 yrs so that they can make it through to the evening. Because they have napped, they are generally okay to stay up - they aren’t exhausted and grumpy - and spend some time with the parents they haven’t seen all day.

whereas in the UK, lunchtime isn’t up to much - a half hour with a sandwich - and the focus on usually on getting away from work early (I’ve left work here in France at 4:30 / 5pm and had colleagues tell me to have a good afternoon 🙄). With far more parents finishing work and home at 5:40/6pm and far more part-time / SAHM children are encouraged to drop naps younger, have an early dinner / spend some time with parents and go to bed earlier because they are tired.

neither are right or wrong, just different ways of organising life - and lunch!

I think families probably complain about bedtime routine because it is quite an event. Most families will do bubble bath, a few stories, we then lie in bed and chat about our days, then they go to bed. So it can take a while which is a lot when you’re exhausted at the end of the day. But I don’t think it’s a bad thing and it’s definitely good for kids to have that time. I have no idea how anyone would manage this for 7, but I don’t see it being stressful at all from 830 and after. That gives hours for dinner and bedtime.

@Orangetigereye "I find it weird that you’re trying to claim British families are unhappy" – I'm not, never was. There's your issue.

You've taken a comment on 1 slightly rigid/stressful part of British kids' routines, generalised it to a comment on all family life in the UK, and got unduly offended and patriotic.

All I said in my initial comment in fact was along the lines of "a SMALL element of daily stress and rigidity", "having more hours for bedtime COULD be more relaxing", etc.

"And school starting at 630, children unable to get up and missing breakfast sounds pretty unhappy to me." – Yes, exactly, that was my exact point. Like I said earlier, I'm not going to argue that rushing is good out of some misplaced sense of patriotism...

Rushing rushing rushing, going against kids and parents' natural pattens, probably does no one good IMO, whether in the morning or evening.

Yes I agree with you! More hours = more relaxing + more good quality family time, both at night and in the morning (parents and kids waking up at same time rather than kid waking up first, grumpy parent etc)

@rickyrickygrimes there are countries where they get off work at 5/6pm and still don't rush bedtime though! Different strokes for different folks deffo, but a little more flexibility benefits most people IMHO! Some of my friends just get so stressed over bedtime like it's the actual witching hour and bad things come out from the shadows after 9pm

But you were saying 830 is too early? It’s fine imo and plenty relaxing.

Ours always came with us if we went out in the evening so often went to bed a little late. Bedtime is up to mum not you. When we had refugees staying at ours they used to be cooking at midnight, I didn’t have an issue with it.

It read much like you are but ok then. But anyway going to bed at 830 or later isn’t rushing rushing rushing, I don’t know why you think it would be.
Going to bed at 7 would be a rush for most, I agree with that as I’ve said.
And patriotic, haha. It isn’t just a British thing, as I’ve said many times.

I said: "In the UK, there's probably a small element of loneliness and daily minor stress for the kids, in all the waking up early before parents/ while parents are grumpy and sleepy, rushing rushing rushing during dinner and bedtime, being sent to bed early, etc."

I literally said small element, it's not like I was making out that British kids are abused or anything lol.....

Personally to me it would be impossible to dine out and socialise if we had to be all tucked in by 830.

However, I think it would be really silly to quibble about exact times like we're setting a train timetable or something.

The wider point is that your bedtime routine shouldn't bring you stress and limit or affect your life too much, whether at night or in the morning.

she's a lodger, unless the boy is getting in your way it's really none of your business

@skygradient
Oh ok it must have been a different poster. I do agree that rushing for strict 7pm bedtimes must cause stress for some people. My parents were really strict on bedtimes and now I have kids I’m not sure why! Which is why I now put my kids to bed at a time that suits them much better, which tends to be 9/930. And there’s no stress involved! I think lots of families do this, especially as most parents work now so can’t be home in time for dinner then 7pm bed. I never understand those that do early bedtime then complain about 5am wakes either 🤷‍♀️ But each to their own, I assume it works best for them.

My son is reception age too. He is asleep by half seven. He wakes up between 5.30 and 6.
If it had the knock on effect of him sleeping til 7, I'd absolutely keep him up til 8.30! (Just doesn't work that logically unfortunately.)

If you think that your way of parenting is the only correct way and everything else is "not OK", I strongly recommend staying away from families that didn't ask for your input. I, personally, think putting a child who isn't tired in bed is ridiculous and cruel, but I'm not going around thinking I get to order other parents about!

8/8:30 pm doesn't really seem that late a bedtime for a 5 yo to be honest. When mine were that age I was picking up from after school club just before 6 then had to get home to do tea, reading, bath and bed. Could not have got through everything for a 7pm bedtime, it was closer to 8. Never any signs they were getting overtired during the day, though.

There is a variation in approaches to bedtimes and as long as it suits the family and the child is not tired during the day then I don't see a problem. I've known people who do bedtimes at times between 6pm and 9pm at that age and the DC were fine. I think you may be being a little rigid here. Saying that, I also knew a few who just left their DC to fall asleep exhausted on the sofa at 11pm then put them in bed. That is neglectful and the DC were falling asleep at school.

Is the bedtime a problem for you in that your evening is being disturbed by the child? That's a valid concern and you have every right to have that addressed. I just don't think it's a problem for the child unless they show signs of daytime tiredness.

You need to address the actual repercussions of him going to bed late. If he being very hard to wake up for school and you can see she is frustrated, then approach it from a "maybe he'd be easier to get up if he didn't go to bed so late." If he gets grumpy in the evenings and mum finds it difficult to handle then "have you thought about maybe getting him to bed earlier, he might be happier." If he's in your way when you are doing your course address that. Otherwise actually open your mind to the reality that just because you were a good parent, it doesn't mean everyone who doesn't do what you did is bad, and take your nose out of where it doesn't belong.

Where did I say WHEN i put my child to bed?

When i say a reasonable time ...it is no earlier than 7.30. A book and sleep.

Seems YOU are the judgemental one

8.30pm isn't too late for quite a few people in the UK and especially for people from overseas as they keep very different hours over there. Late for me lol cos I like my me time and my eldest was in bed for 7pm til he was 7, my 3.5yr old almost 2yr old anytime from 6-6.30pm. they tend to eat late over there so probably isn't affecting him too badly as long as he's had a snack to tide him over til teatime. If it was 11pm I would say something but 8.30 I'd keep myself to myself.

When DD was a baby, and started to sleep properly, I brought her bedtime forward gradually. I was always aiming for 7pm but when I got her going to bed at 8pm I realised it was right for her and kept us in a good routine. She went at 8pm from being a baby to turning 7 last summer, when I moved it back to 8.30.
7 seems ideal in theory but not always in practice. If he isn't getting enough sleep, missing school etc then I'd ask her if she needs some help but otherwise it doesn't seem too late.

If he was going to bed at midnight I’d agree but I’m not sure there’s much of an issue. Different cultures. My partner is Indian and his family don’t understand why our children have such a strict routine. Their children regularly stay up til gone midnight. But I don’t question in because it’s not my concern.