I’m prepared to be told I’m a terrible mother but please hear me out.

[stillreallytired]

My 5 month old has had one half hour sleep between 1045 this morning and now.

He is screaming with exhaustion, and I’ve been sobbing as well.

I really need advice but it does need to be actual advice I can use. So:

The sling is a no go.

He will sleep in the pram but I don’t want to be overly reliant on this.

He will feed to sleep sometimes. But the problem is if he doesn’t I then have to wait until he’s hungry enough to accept another bottle.

Dummies don’t work as he spits them out or knocks them out of his mouth.

So - I’ve no idea but I am desperate.

I haven't read the whole thread- I will- but just to pick up on your comment about him sleeping at nursery. Please try not to worry. I've worked in a baby room for many years, cared for babies who only sleep in the pram at home/ are breastfed to sleep/ only nap in Mum's arms etc. They all settle in to their own little routine at nursery- some sleep in cots, some on sleep mats, some in buggies. Many who never self settle at home go off to sleep in no time at all when at nursery. Others might need a cuddle or rocking or patting. We find a way, I promise.

You've had a rotten day. Tomorrow's a new one. You made it! Take good care and get rest, OP.

Have you tried beside the washing machine/dryer mine used to nap there when younger. Also calpol incase of teething if you’ve not tried it.

Hi @stillreallytired 👋 so I have a 5 month old boy too and a nearly 3 Yr old boy. My 3 Yr old was a dream... my baby sounds a bit like yours. Busy days when we are out and about and things are good, we are both chilled he naps in car or pram etc. Days at home are a bloody nightmare! Doesn't help that my 3 Yr old plays 'go go go' pretending to be a car running up and down the lounge! So basically I care for him as if he is not screaming... firstly I walk up and down with him, then I go outside in the garden for literally ten seconds if it's raining but just to quickly change environment or if its sunny we may stay outside for a bit, then inside I undress him fully and give him some naked time on a towel, then I prepare a bath and a bottle etc and try that, then I put the TV on and we watch a bit of that, then I sit him in front of the washing machine whilst I clean kitchen or cook and put radio on... sometimes it takes all of these things. Sometimes I ring my parents/partner in tears. But mostly I find if I can stay calm it massively helps- so I stay calm by working through my list and often within 45 mins he is settled. I find he can be overtired and hungry at the same time... so he may need a ten minute nap in order to drink a bottle. I don't care how long he sleeps in a day really as long as he is relatively calm and seems happy. Your baby is secure with you- he probably thinks he's missing out by going to sleep! You CAN do this. I echo getting support from the GP if you feel able (best thing I ever did after my first).

OP, I'm so sorry you're going through this. My first was a terrible sleeper and it was exhausting. I can tell you now that you're not a terrible mother at all, just an exhausted one. I know it's easier said than done but you need to stop giving yourself such a hard time.
In terms of practical advice- I was wondering if you had a baby swing? They're battery powered and rock themselves- some play music as well. This worked quite well for us at these times of crisis. Would recommend white noise as well.
I would say, hard at it is, try to just be in the moment and not think too far ahead of even the next few hours. Your baby is still really little so will change a lot in just a month.
Do you have a partner (apologies if you've mentioned this already and I've missed it) or any friends/family locally. It might seem strange, but babies sometimes respond differently with different people. Just thinking if there was someone who could pop over (or your partner if they're about) and just hold your baby for a bit while you take 10 mins to have a shower or something.
If I think of anything else I'll come back on and post. But although this probably doesn't help with the hell you're going through now, it is a phase and it will pass, honestly.
Oh, and sorry if this is obvious- but maybe just check their temperature in case they need some calpol or something. It's probably just a case of being over tired, but worth checking...

I've got a very nearly 2 year old. Only ever napped in the pram. Naps fine at nursery. Sleeps brilliantly at night in her cot. If the pram works, do it. Much better than having an over tired baby. Much less stressful.

I think I read one of your posts saying he needs to sleep every 2 hours. It might be he is already over tired by then. My two children could never go more than 1.5hrs between sleeps at that age, sometimes less. Maybe tomorrow try putting him down earlier to see if he is similar? Rubbing eyes was always a late sign with mine and I would put them down before they started showing me they were tired.

And I know you weren't keen on this, but warm baths are a great way to calm a baby. Night or day. I really would recommend trying a bath next time he gets over tired and is crying a lot. Then dark room, milk, sleep.

Try to stick to a strict routine. Day always starts and ends at the same time, and nap times and feeding are consistent. But equally understand that sometimes you will have a bad day and none of it will go to the plan. Those days you write off, and you start afresh the next day.

Really don’t worry about nursery they behave differently, usually better with everything at nursery.
Some babies just fight sleep. My 3 year still doesn’t sleep enough and I’ve tried everything and I still rely on a push out in the buggy when I desperate. My 9 month old isn’t great either at naps yesterday She had three short ones today one very long one.
I found they improve when they start on solids.
I rely on the pram totally for naps, a warm Bath sometimes helps, sometimes watching something mesmerising stops them being upset so they drop off, temperature can make a difference mine both like to be very warmto fall asleep. My first would have a dummy, second won’t but will suck my knuckle. If I’m calm it’s easier, i know that’s easier said than done.
If they need a poo or are coming down with something they often don’t sleep

You are an amazing mum who obviously cares so much for your dc. I too remember these days and trying every thing I could think of and not being able to make others understand the desperation when their little ones were following a perfect routine or would drop off instantly with a shush and a pat. DH often travelled so it was just the two of us and there were many times I would put DD in her cot, shut the door and go out on the balcony for a ten minute breather and cry so I could then struggle through the rest of the day.
I have no advice but just reiterating what others have said- you aren't alone in this experience and you will get through minute by minute and hour by hour. Hang in there.

One of mine slept way better once he could roll. he wanted to sleep on his front, so all the time he was lying on his back in a pram he never got decent naps. Always woke up as soon as the motion stopped, but once he slept on his front in a cot - he would sleep for hours!

Hi Op it sounds like you've had one hell of a day. I really hope that tomorrow is better. It sounds like you're doing your absolute best and that one means you're a brilliant mum. Babies and sleep are so variable - either the baby or the age or something. Not being able to go outside is brutal. It is my sanity and when the weather is like it is currently I find it so hard to manage. I definitely subscribe to the walk round the block for sanity option but not on a day like today!
Don't worry about nursery - my bad sleeper slept brilliantly at nursery and not for me. Annoying but there we go. I hope you get a better day tomorrow.

Goodness I feel for you OP - it’s such a shitty situation.

Part of the problem is that once a baby is overtired, they need so much help to get to sleep and stay asleep because their cortisol levels are high. You can try layering lots of helpful sleep associations (so dark room, white noise, swaddle, rocking motion, something to suck) to help them regulate themselves but it isn’t always effective. Worth a try though - a tight swaddle and white noise helps my baby when he’s gone over.

Re the huckleberry app, I find with my baby (who is 5.5 months old) that the wake windows it estimates for him are too long. The app suggests 2 to 2.5 hours, but he’s often showing signs of needing sleep by 1.5 hours. So it might be worth you just keeping an eye on the clock and watching your baby for sleepy cues earlier than 2 hours. If he isn’t able to last 2 hours then it may be that by the time you’re settling him for a nap he’s already overtired, and then you’re stuck in a vicious cycle.

I hope he has an ok night tonight. Tomorrow is a new day

I've read your posts @stillreallytired but not all the others. I'm just going to say a few ideas:

Won't necessarily help invoke sleep, but make daytime naps in daylight, so his clock gets established.

Put him down the moment his hand goes near his eye. Lay him down happy, say goodbye happy, give him a kiss, go out.

Check he has no physiological reasons for discomfort when prone. Consider massaging his tummy in case of trapped wind? Gentle clockwise swirls around the naval. Or bicycling his legs.

Read a book aloud. Pride and Prejudice was a winner for me - your voice will soothe.

Don't be covert about putting him down to sleep. Make it 'normal' and clear you are leaving but return to reassure if he cries so he knows you are near.

Best wishes and you haven't 'done this' to him; you are fine. Try to relax yourself or relax together. Deep breathing while lying down; he can lie on your torso maybe? Google some mother/baby yoga moves I guess!

I don't know if you're looking for support but if you are, try mamaboo - she has successfully helped a couple of friends of mine who were similarly dropping with exhaustion with babies that wouldn't sleep www.facebook.com/mamaboosleepsolutions/

Right OP I had a baby like this - he didn't sleep night or day. I was genuinely concerned I would die from exhaustion. I was a relatively young mum and I often think if I'd been a bit older I might well have done!

I felt like I was failing too - I wasn't. His sister slept through almost from day one - that wasn't because I was good at it by then it was just the way they were built.

I have driven round at 3am with a screaming baby, sobbed pushing a park backwards and forwards in the hall, found myself staring into space with exhaustion. It's AWFUL but it does pass. Honestly. I know one more day feels like an eternity though right now.

My advice is :

Stop worrying about nursery - cross that bridge when you come to it.

Keep trying with various dummies. It might not work but it just might.

Try winding him frequently esp by sitting him forward on your knee and sort of swivelling his bum around.

Do skin on skin a lot.

Stop counting hours of sleep versus no sleep. Having knowledge of it doesn't make anything any better or easier to cope with does it?

Do try the pram (sorry!!!) just standing still rocking back and forth. No eye contact, try music or white noise if you want.

If he'll cuddle / feed to sleep then do that and safely co sleep if you can.

Get out of the house as much as you can - meet up with friends / go to the park / shops whatever. Leave the house.

Meditation app even for 10 minutes a day to focus on your mental health

Remember his sleep or lack thereof isn't a reflection of your bond or your parenting skills. Babies are different just like adults. I have terrible insomnia, dh sleeps like a log, 🤷🏻‍♀️

You'll get through this - please try and just take a few minutes and think of starting afresh and trying the things I've said above even if you've tried them before. Commit to giving them a fair go again. Babies change so quickly you just never know.

Have you tried the huckleberry app? It's free and absolutely saved me. You put in the details of your child and it tells you roughly when there nap is due. I followed that and put him in his cot when the nap was due and it worked! I just wasn't good at looking for sleep cues.

I also brought a mobile with a projector light that helped get him more use to the cot!

Good luck it does get better. I remember feeling as low as you sound!

Sorry you had such an awful day. I hope you and he both get a good night's sleep. DS only slept in a moving pram or moving car. He never ever got the amount of sleep he was supposed to. 13 now and he survived and grew and thrived. You'll get through it somehow.

I am late to this thread but my heart broke for you reading this thread and I hope that tomorrow is a better day for you
I was a single mum from day one, I'm assuming you are or you have very little support, and it is hard on a good day never mind a day like today when you know there is no one coming to take over so you can just get a minute.
You are not a bad mother and this isn't something that you have caused.
You are your sons whole world and he adores you and thinks you are perfect even on the days when you are a snotty mess because you have been crying along with him Try not to be so hard on yourself, I hope you both are getting a good sleep

Oh I wish I could give you a big hug, I was in your shoes just over 4 years ago (and you may even find my old thread on here if you look). Fortunately the majority were much much nicer to me than they have been yo you.

I know exactly what you mean - it is a distant memory now but my then 4 month old would not nap. Her first wake window would be from when she woke up for a minimum of 4 hours. She would catnap while breastfeeding but as soon as I took the nipple out, she was up. She also napped in buggy but it took relentless walking outside to achieve - 30+ mins on uneven terrain to get her to fall asleep followed by another 1-2 hours out to keep her asleep. The second the pram moved onto the driveway of our house, her eyes pinged open. I had to stay out the entire time, going into a shop or cafe also didnt keep her asleep. How much I hated all those women in a cafe with a sleeping baby in their pram while they had a coffee.

She was overtired so then became irritable and grumpy and this was every single day. I felt like I had tried every known method to get her to go sleep and stay asleep. I couldnt even imagine her going to sleep within 1.5-2 hours of waking as recommended when it took everything to achieve a nap after 4 hours.

I used a sleep consultant in the end and it achieved what I needed. No, she did not sleep through the night unaided from then onwards - but that was never my aim. What she did do was follow a routine with regular napping and regular bedtimes. I also found that had its downfalls as I preferred to go out as I pleased and was then housebound for naps for a while but I had a happy baby so it was a worthwhile sacrifice. Parenting was honestly a joy once she started sleeping as she was so happy when awake. The technique used did not involve leaving her alone to cry it out however she did protest as points - much much less than I expected and I was with her the entire time

What I learnt from the sleep consultant:

• I was not entirely consistent in my methods of putting her to sleep - I genuinely thought I was but stopping a method because it did not work for 2 days was not the answer
• As alert as she was, she still needed the same amount of sleep most other babies did. So many people in RL told me that shes alert because she is bright and some need less sleep. No, she needed the lower end of the spectrum but still much much more than she was getting before using the sleep consultant
• There are times of the day where their melatonin surges and they fall asleep much easier. This is why most of the sleep routine books suggest a broadly similar routine. If the optimal time is missed, it becomes much harder to put them down (I knew part of this because of my profession but not the same way as you do when you're a parent)

Using the sleep consultant is the best thing we ever did. It got good sleep habits into her and she continued napping until just before her 4th birthday. It did not teach her not to cry out for me as many believe as she still does and I often still sleep with her too. I am certain she would have stopped napping by 18 months if we had not got the help from someone else.

I really hope this reassures you a bit. It honestly does pass and is now a distant memory for me. Please send me a pm if you want to talk

It sounds like this is just one of those tear your hair out days. I used to have these frequently when DD was tiny and they're awful, especially when you can't go out. I once had to shut her in her cot and leave her, about 15 minutes later I took my headphones out and she passed out asleep. Sometimes there is nothing you can do and you have to leave them, I'd anything for your own sanity. They can pick up on your stress and anxiety which I think was the problem with my DD. You're not doing anything awful, and with the best will and techniques in the world, you can't make them sleep. It is up to them to a certain degree. I know you said you don't want to talk to anyone about your PND, but you really should. I had it and never spoke to anyone and thinking back, I would've had a much better year bonding with my DD if I had. The best advice I can give is leave the apps alone if they're not helping and just try to ride these bad days out however you can. It does get easier but it's a hard slog.

How are you today OP? Hoping you have a better day! I have a very awake but so far chilled baby here. Fingers crossed he stays that way as DP on a very long shift.

You are NOT shit! That amount of sleep really isn't that bad so you're doing something right. My friends baby just didn't nap, ever! I don't have advice but just wanted to say there is nothing you're doing wrong

He will sleep in the pram but I don’t want to be overly reliant on this.

Why not? Needs must if he is exhausted and over tired?

My 4 month old twins often need to go in the pram to calm down sometimes when they are screaming from exhaustion and can't settle. - I imagine that babies find it comforting/safe in there as it's a smaller space and darker with the hood Up

Hi OP - I really feel for you and could have written very similar posts at a similar stage. You mentioned going back to work- are you doing this soon, I.e. when baby is six months or so? Apologies if I missed this info.

I ask because I went back when my LO was six months and had very similar anxiety about getting baby to sleep for that reason. My LO had horrendous colic (often screaming 4pm til midnight) until we cracked getting her to sleep in the sling (a whole other story, mine hated it at first too) and then she'd sleep for up to three hours at a time in there and was great at night (until the four month sleep regression- another another story!!). So I had THE FEAR about messing with her sleep because she so clearly needed lots and lord knows I didn't want to go back to the evening scream fests.

But - I had to go back to work at 6 months. My husband and I were covering most of the childcare between us but we were relying on grandparents to do one day a week and they couldn't cart her about in the sling for hours at a time. I was also suffering with back pain which wasn't helped by the sling, and she started to wake up crying in it - I think where she was getting so heavy the sling was pressing her clothes in to her? Sometimes she'd have red creases on her bum and legs when we took her out, I think she was getting too big for the stretchy one but she wouldn't sleep in a structured one 🙄

I was in total despair- any time I put her in the cot she just screamed, despite sleeping OK in it at night. We hired a sleep consultant as a last resort on the recommendation of friends - it was awful. She said it wasn't cry it out but really it was- I gave up and said we wouldn't need her services any more but then I didn't know what to do. I felt like a total failure because it was my need to go back to work that put the pressure on and I felt like I was being selfish doing that rather than going at her pace, even though I was also furious with her for not just sleeping like a 'normal baby' - neither of those reactions were reasonable and I see that now but the hormones and emotions are FULL ON. The other thing was I felt bad that I couldn't rock or cuddle her to sleep- most people mention that as a last resort but my LO would go even more nuts if I picked her up from the cot. I felt like I couldn't comfort my baby like other people can and she didn't want to be near me - it was heartbreaking. Looking back now I see she was exhausted and the sensory stimulation of being picked up was just the last straw for her.

In the end I called my hv in floods of tears - she came out to me a week or two later and just listened. She helped me identify that the real issue was my feelings of guilt and anxiety and that's why it was such a highly charged issue for me. She suggested that we keep trying the baby in the cot, doing bum pats and shushing - baby would scream and I'd leave her for a few mins, go back for a few mins, rinse and repeat. It sent the message that I was there to help, but that if me being there was making it worse then I'd leave her to it for a bit - but that I would always come back. It did work eventually- she would only nap for half an hour/45 mins to start with which I was so worried about but we just put her down more often. The hv suggested that I write a little book to my daughter while she was crying, writing about how I loved her and all about her, so I could share it with her when she was older. I still write in the book every few months even though she sleeps well now! It helped me feel like good mum who was trying my best to help my LO at a time when that's the last thing you feel like.

Anyway, all this to say you're not alone. Your LO will be fine and you are a good mum. Just remember to try and understand why you feel as you do when things are tough - it's as important to listen to yourself as it is to sort the baby. Reach out for help if you need. THIS WILL PASS AND IT WILL BE FINE.

After 3, you do what you can and if they sleep on the sling or pram you go for it. I really don't thing bad habits form until much later.