My children have never slept and it’s tearing us apart. Please help.

[2020in2020]

Another night of tears and shouting. We have 2 DD’s aged 7 and 4 - yes, that’s 7 and 4 years old. Neither has ever reliably slept through the night and it has now got to the point where I start to physically shake at the onset of bedtime routine as it causes so much anxiety.

We have tried everything. They co-slept at birth, in cot at 6 months. Controlled crying, gradual retreat, gro-clock, god knows how many night lights, reward charts, bribery, punishment, moving them in together, moving them back apart, redecorating bedrooms, new beds... literally everything.

They both struggle to fall asleep. The 4 year old has to have someone with her but she can take up to an hour to fall asleep, and always wakes in the night and either comes to us or I go to her bed.

The 7 year old can read herself to sleep and has slept through occasionally but it never lasts and recently she’s started claiming she can’t fall asleep.

It’s making all 4 of us absolutely miserable. I can’t seem to find anything UK based about older children not sleeping and sleep training has not worked. Believe me I have tried. We absolutely can not afford a private sleep consultant and I’m not convinced it would work. Does anyone know if I went to the GP they could give me anything? I spend most nights in tears and as I write this my husband is crying with my 7 year old as they had a huge argument as we actually came to bed early and she woke us up. I honestly can’t cope with this anymore.

Hi, that sounds difficult.
From all the other feedback above I would ensure
-Lots of exercise

• no screens- at that age up to 30 minutes max, they choose 30 mins each per day. An hour in total
• low lights and chill out time pre bed- reading as a family

We had what you describe with our eldest. After months of it we went to a child psychologist who told us that our anxiety was key thing to manage. We focussed on tiny improvements bringing back bedtime by 5 minutes a day. Focussed on the overall trajectory rather than good days and bad days. No coming to our room if awake. We learned that all our over parenting and over checking framed bedtime in a whole set of expectations for our kids that they needed met to go asleep. We worked on taking those away. Now both kids have slept brilliantly through the night. You need to recognise the atress this causes you as a couple. Kids need to learn that they need to learn to self soothe and go to sleep on their own. It might take afew nights,up toa week of tears, tiredness and all the rest until they start to sleep but stick with it. Gently soothe, leave the room, dont engage and repeat. I dont advocate controlled crying and neither did psychologist. A star chart is a super good idea for a jointly earned family treat. So a star for each night they go to bed within a set time etc. Just as an aside- I had to work in France for a few weeks last year and stayed with afamily with kids, oh my- bed by 7.30, up at 7, dinner at 6, table set, dinner eaten 20 mins TV and bed. Couple were religious abput kids and adults time being distinct. I really was interesting. How will your relationship survive if you cannot set boundaries in plCe. Good Luck. DM me if you need.

**
I feel so awful. I worry they will remember me snapping shouting and crying at them when they are older and hate me for it**

Just read your update. I do remember my mum losing her shit with me and honestly do not hate her one bit. I'm just impressed she coped for so long. Please dont be too hard on yourself.

I found it helped to wear them out during the day! Walks, games, anything - generally just make them tired!
When our two were a similar age the routine (and still is at 12 and 10) was bath or shower, PJs, warm milk, teeth, story in bed if they want it (not so much for the 12 year old nowadays) and then if they wouldn't sleep after that either my husband or I would sit on their floor and just read a book to ourselves. So there was presence but no engaging with them. They used to drop off out of boredom, I think! We always used to stay with them until they were asleep when they were small. Another little hiatus we had with sleep aged about 9 and 7, by then they had their own rooms, and we bought little CD players to play audio books and some starry projectors so they would listen to another story after we read to them and left the room. I think boredom is probably the key after you have given the attention they need - if they're getting lights switched on, lots of discussion when they wake etc then they're getting feedback which we tried not to give (obviously we did if they needed it for a drink/they were not well etc).

God my typos! No glasses. Sorry

Pistachio nuts contain melatonin so I'd get them to eat a handful everyday.

Also get outside in the morning as that helps to reset the body clock.

Gro clocks are useful, they have night (with blue light) and day (yellow light) which you can set the time for.
While it's night, you stay in your room. You don't have to be asleep. You disturb others only for emergencies - ill, house on fire. You can go to the toilet, but alone (7 year old). We leave toilet light on all night.

We also have a guided meditation on sometimes if she is saying she can't sleep. I say fine, just read or listen to a meditation, but stay here and stay quiet. I would start with 7 year old and loudly praise her being so sensible and grown up about staying in her room in the hearing of 4 year old on several occasions...

So sorry to hear about all that is going on.

I have three DD age 6, 5 and 3 month and I suffer from epilepsy and the elder two just wouldn't go to sleep

they were in and out of our bed and if we managed to get them to sleep in their own beds it was always a case of they forgot to tell us something or needed water (even though it was right next to them).

My eldest is a very sensitive child and a thinker so finding her awake at sometimes even 1/2 in the morning (during lockdown) was getting worrying I had asked for melatonin but was refused it.

Initially I tried cherry juice it didn't make any difference and then I researched melatonin and found an American organisation that did the melatonin gummies 1mg.

After having a traumatic birth with pneumonia, covid, sepsis and seizures my mental health was not great and I decided to try them out and I managed to get them into a nice sleep routine.

My daughter's no longer have them I used them on alternate nights and phased them out all within a few weeks.

I am in no way encouraging you to take the path I took but I would definitely speak to your doctor esp if he/she is supportive.

Hope it all works out for you and you don't have to take extreme measures like me. My heart goes out to you I've been there and it's really hard.x

I would download a mindfulness/meditation app or mp3 and teach the seven year old to self settle with that. She is old enough to be told that she cannot leave her room after bedtime unless unwell. It sounds like she is anxious.
I was an anxious child and had a lot of issues falling asleep. Something that really helped me was listening to an audiobook after lights out. To a degree, I am still crap at sleeping and now listen to podcasts to get to sleep.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but white noise or any background can do wonders with troubled sleepers. I require the noise of a fan or Alexa playing womb sounds to sleep.

@2020in2020 I have no advice but I feel exactly like you! I co sleep with my 2 yo and 6 yo as that's the only way they'll both sleep. I feel i've been lazy and should have been stricter with enforcing good night time sleep.

@2020in2020 i can imagine.

why dont you, have a think about how you would like bedtime to be and what processes you feel comfortable doing?. thats why I've suggested the nurturing snuggly approach as i think your instinct is the earth mother attachment parenting style. so dont fight that with tough love rules and regiments. it might not work for your family. especially now while your kids are fractious and just going to resist harder.

I like the idea of creating little family bedtime traditions and rituals. memories they will grow up cherishing and love you for doing. closing the curtains and switching on a lamp, choosing a book. kids can read to each other. get special blankets all qwtch up together talk about the day.... i ask the kids what are they grateful for this day, what are they looking forward to the next day .warm milk and a little biscuit if you feel like! find out their love language. do they like cuddles, rewards., kind words, just being together or talking??

However! you can still have boundaries and order within this, but shower them with love and patience. do not forget you cant over praise them for positive response. even if they dont do the right thing but stop doing the wrong thing! praise praise praise. positive reinforcement .

the danger of researching when you're desperate is getting overloaded with ideas and everything gets muddled and watered down.

that why i would start early for bedtime and think it takes as long as it takes! I would rather a good regime that takes 2 hours plus and have the kids sleeping through the night. you will also be able to shorten it as you all get into your groove.

I think if you get this in order and bring their and your anxiety levels down, chances are they might not wake in the night. but if they do, you will feel more empowered as a parent to cope with it. And you can come back here and we and I can give you some more pointers to try

Have you tried Piriton? It works on my bad sleepers when they are a bit 'excitable' before bed. GP said it's absolutely fine to give every night if need be (luckily I don't need to) I think it formed better habits though and gets them back into a routine if we've had a few late nights during holidays etc .

There’s a kids book that guarantees you tea it your kids they will fall asleep.. sure d one on here will know wha it’s called or have a google

My 5 year old struggles with sleep, my 8 year old has always been excellent so I firmly believe it's not always parenting, just some people are shitty sleepers. What about an old fashioned reward chart? For my DS if he sleeps all night in his own bed until 6am for 7 nights in a row, he is allowed a sleepover in his sisters room which he adores! Would they respond to a bigger treat - 7 nights and a day out somewhere/movie night/sleepover? I think bribery is a great option to break habits tbh.

Have you tried a speaker pillow and playing audio books / music through it. I've always had trouble sleeping and that works for me.

What is your actual bedtime routine?

Please list it for us.

Sounds horrific. You have my every sympathy. My son has ADHD and we use melatonin. It's amazing. It is only on prescription in the UK. If you log onto German Amazon for example you can have it shipped and they sell it in gummies. My partner and I normally buy loads when we go to Europe for ourselves ...obvs hasn't happened for a while. It's not addictive and it is a naturally occuring hormone. At the very least it might encourage some good sleep hygiene and they might not need it in the future.

You have my sympathy - my own DD only started sleeping through the night when she went to school, and needed someone with her to get to sleep until she was 7 - so not entirely dissimilar.

We just accepted that was how it was - DH did most of the bed times. We had a second mattress in her room in case she needed someone in the night, so whoever went in with her could get some sleep. You could do uni work while waiting for them to fall asleep?

If either of us was in the room waiting for DD to get to sleep, she had to be lying down in the dark and quiet - if she started talking/making a fuss, we left. She wanted us so much, that was a useful threat, but it may not work for you.

Our DD has had a few issues over the years, and choosing to accept the situation rather than being really stressed things aren't 'normal' has really helped.

Gosh op it sounds horrific there really is nothing worse .
My dc has melatonin doesn't work as well now he's older but if he doesn't have any he definitely does not sleep .
It's been mentioned before but please go and speak to your gp , it's not right you are at breaking point .
Please ring tomorrow and hopefully will get something sorted . You say you've tried everything so I think it has to be medical intervention now .

Get melatonin
Every other country in Europe sells it in health food shops. and US. And Canada.

Biovea or similar online.
My DS does get it prescribed officially by GP, but I buy it online for me and DP. DS went through CAMHS and psychiatrists and a diagnosis of ADHD before the NHS would give it to us

We got our 7yr old s yoto player so she can put a story on to listen to. We get to stay asleep, and she chooses the story at bedtime and puts it next to the player so when she wakes, she puts it on in the middle of the night, often she goes to sleep to it too. You can set the volume controls to so it’s quiet enough for her but not loud enough to wake others. She knows not to get out of bed or put her light on. It’s been a lifesaver.

Good luck

As much exercise outside as possible. Bath before bed and then cold turkey-stopping as much of what you're doing now. Not waiting until asleep etc. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh.

And I would only ever give drugs/melatonin as a last resort.

This sounds incredibly tough. I don't think it will be the co sleeping which caused it though. We have co slept much longer than this with all 3 of ours and no problems now. ( Same with our friends and their 3 kids)

Don't beat yourself up for the past, could you get a sleep consultant?? Good luck

You have my total sympathy. We bought a huge bed and just let them crawl into it. And we just suffered from exhaustion for years. DS has ASD - a symptom of this is not sleeping. By the age of about 8 we just said: we are shattered. You might not need sleep but we do. It makes us angry and clumsy if we don't sleep. So don't wake us.' We set up drink, snack, game to play and left low night lights on. They came into our beds still fairly often but not as much as before.

Still now lack of sleep is my biggest fear. And once the youngest hit adolescence and started sleeping late, I slept about 12 hours a day for a few years to make up for it.