My children have never slept and it’s tearing us apart. Please help.

[2020in2020]

Another night of tears and shouting. We have 2 DD’s aged 7 and 4 - yes, that’s 7 and 4 years old. Neither has ever reliably slept through the night and it has now got to the point where I start to physically shake at the onset of bedtime routine as it causes so much anxiety.

We have tried everything. They co-slept at birth, in cot at 6 months. Controlled crying, gradual retreat, gro-clock, god knows how many night lights, reward charts, bribery, punishment, moving them in together, moving them back apart, redecorating bedrooms, new beds... literally everything.

They both struggle to fall asleep. The 4 year old has to have someone with her but she can take up to an hour to fall asleep, and always wakes in the night and either comes to us or I go to her bed.

The 7 year old can read herself to sleep and has slept through occasionally but it never lasts and recently she’s started claiming she can’t fall asleep.

It’s making all 4 of us absolutely miserable. I can’t seem to find anything UK based about older children not sleeping and sleep training has not worked. Believe me I have tried. We absolutely can not afford a private sleep consultant and I’m not convinced it would work. Does anyone know if I went to the GP they could give me anything? I spend most nights in tears and as I write this my husband is crying with my 7 year old as they had a huge argument as we actually came to bed early and she woke us up. I honestly can’t cope with this anymore.

Sorry stupid spell check corrected to there instead of their

You haven't responded to the HV comment op, one of the big things they help with is sleep issues. It's a free service that's there for you to use. Same for you older child, you can access the school nursing service for her.

@Wallywobbles i suspect your aiming for a rise but has it never struck you that your families reputation of shit sleeping comes from a family of shit sleepers, yet you do the same to your child, that leave you alone spirit is fucking horrendous for them? I suspect you need a new therapist, that one is a bit twisted

One of my DDs would not sleep on her own, I blame my DH as he never wanted to go through that stage of just letting her cry or get use to going to sleep on her own, he always gave in. She was 3.5 when she finally stopped but only because we had a new baby and we told her she had to be a good big sister so could get in bed with us and needed to let us look after the baby. It was like a switch with her and it worked. Not telling you to have another baby of course haha.

DD is 6 now and is always getting up, can go on for an hour or more sometimes, she will go to the toilet about a dozen times, we just let up her go through her little routine before she finally goes to sleep. Sometimes it involves coming down stairs but mostly not.

The 7 yr old sounds perfectly normal, our 8yo is the same, apparently her friends are too. As well as reading she has an amazon echo in her room and she listens to stories, we put it on a timer so when the timer goes off she knows it’s time to go to sleep. Sometimes she will ask for more time, we usually allow it as it’s better than her coming up and down the stairs if she can’t sleep. We also let her play when she’s listening to it, or tell her to tidy her room while she’s listening to the story. I find if she is doing activities she is more likely to settle. If we are constantly in and out of her room she won’t settle but if we leave her to it, give her some space to do her own thing she dose settle.

Have you tried white noise? We used it with all of ours when they were little. We still have it going in our 6 & 3yos room, mainly for the 3yo.

Thanks so much everyone.

I think a shift in perspective could be helpful : I’ve been so hung up on the fact they must fall asleep alone by 8pm and then stay asleep and it’s driving me mad. I can see the benefit in saying as long as you are in your rooms quietly no screens or whatever, you don’t have to sleep til you’re tired could work.

My DH actually moved out for a week last year, I slept in our bed with them and I did think god this is easy!

'Have you tried just shutting the door and leaving them to it? Every night for a week, at least? Just let them get on with it.'

Yes this exactly . If I sat in with mine waiting for them to fall asleep it would stimulate them and they'd never go to sleep!

The fact that they stil don't care at 7 is what chills me. That is atleast partly behavioural.

What sanctions follow a shit night with the 7 year old?

There are some basics that may help:

Dark room, indeed lower all the lights in the house as soon as it becomes dark outside to support melatonin production

No exercise 3 hours before bed

No junk carbohydrate food - especially sugar - at all, but if you must never 4 hours before bedtime

A warm bath before bedtime

Weighted blankets

These are from Matthew Walkers bestseller, Why We Sleep

championpediatrictherapy.com/blog/2018/5/2/fun-facts-about-sleeping

I'm sure you've probably tried this but could you switch off all screens and devices by say 6pm and then have quiet activities like colouring, card games, reading etc .. I realised recently that if my DD watches TV later in the evening she struggles to fall asleep. Also you could try a meditation app with them, I guess Headspace may do a kids' one? I've used it for myself before and it really has been good. Or yoga stretches? That may help with dropping off but probably not the waking up.. sorry! Sounds v tough.

My ds isn't a good sleeper and still takes ages to get to sleep. We have been the the same page and that has helped enormously. DH was a soft touch so he did bath a s story and I did settling. We took turns through the night, to rapid return. We went into it with an attitude that giving up wasn't an option, we both worked full time and had zero support with DC. We started at the weekend and took turns having naps.

Once in bed he was not allowed to get out of bed except to go to the toilet. He was not allowed to come out of his room until 7. If he made noise he wasn't allowed tv or his pad. Essentially, we could not make him sleep but could see the disruption. There is no great calamity to staying in his room. We took him to the park every day for a run around.

Will definitely be getting in touch with the HV too, I didn’t realise we could still use them! Even though she is at school?

Why? I'd look practical ofirst is it temperature, wanting security and a cuddle, them being bloody minded etc what do you really think the reason is. Common approach and you stick to it. One night on and one off - and you are strict with it. Him not doing it - my god I'd go ballastic as he is undoing everything you are doing. If they will sleep together do it. Mums room out of bounds Monday Wednesday Friday dads room out of bounds Tuesday Thursday Saturday - because I'd be sleeping alone by now. Until he pulls his weight. I saw you have a dog id putting them in together with the dog a big no. Ie dog will give them stickers if he can sleep on his bed on the floor as they are etc not tv etc the following day or something taken away for a really poor night when they don't follow instructions etc my 7 year old is a total bugger and has Sen pain but he either comes in a snuggles nicely or stays in his room. Sleep deprivation is bloody torture.

gosh this all sounds so fraught. poor you!

i think when it gets to this stage, everybody is so emotional and wired that even the things that do work cease to work.

I would focus on how to establish good calm, pleasant and relaxing bedtimes. Lots of gentle attentiveness. warm luxurious bath, maybe a little massage with lotion after. songs and stories. no screen. low quiet voices. no rushing. be so zen .
At bedtime, sit with them, be attentive and have boundaries but not emotional or reactive.

also, dont under-estimate the power of outdoor exercise and good food in the day to wear them out. some one-one activity that has been fun and enjoyable for all involved so they are sated they have had quality attention from you and are paining for it in the night

good luck! let us know how you get on and what the doctor says

I also agree that it is important for them to have their space and sleep when they are ready (within reason) after a little help with music or little books, ipad lullabies or what ever works for your child (afterall they are all so different) . I couldn't sleep on demand so why should my child. Since I've been putting less pressure on myself things have become ALOT easier. Good luck op

@Nanny2many you have hit the nail on the head. By 6pm I’m already stressed, the 7 year old starts playing up and being grumpy, DH gets cross...it’s a nightmare.

I would love for it to be a calm snuggly time. At the moment it’s just so tense which can’t be goo for them.

I feel so awful. I worry they will remember me snapping shouting and crying at them when they are older and hate me for it.

Absolutely no coming out of their room or calling to you for the 7 year old. Let her read abs listen to stories but in bed. Start with a full jar of marbles, each time she calls you or comes out of her room she loses a marble from the jar. At the end of the week of there are no marbles out of the jar she gets a small present. At the end of the month a bigger one.

Wee, drink, teeth, kisses all happen before you say goodnight, no yo-yo img up and down stairs for kisses / scared of the dark / can’t find a toy, need a drink.

4 year old, do a simple version. Assuming they have no SEN then I’m afraid it’s tough love,

You have my utmost sympathy, my eldest didn’t sleep through until 4

Also agree with the mattress. My middle one came in and slept on a mattress on the floor from about 3-5 but I would only do it in desperation: I’d be tempted to keep them competing with each other to stay in bed

I haven't read all the replies, but I just wanted to let you know that you can order melatonin from the US. It is sold over the counter there (we used to live in the US), and, rightly or wrongly, people use it as a sleep aid in the same way we might drink Ovaltine. My DD(10) struggles with falling sleep and we use it occasionally when she is especially tired and just needs a decent sleep. To get it prescribed in the UK would need a referral from a consultant - in all honesty we didn't want to go down that route and make it into an even bigger deal, so we just did our research, worked out the appropriate dose, and order it ourselves. You might find that using it for a few nights helps break what is obviously a really difficult pattern of behaviour for you all.

Do they have to share a room? Are they disturbing each other? It is difficult. Mine liked sharing, but if they kept each other awake I separated them. Luckily we did have a 3rd bedroom.

You are doing your best. Some
Kids just don't sleep. Do whatever it takes for you to manage. If that means they sleep with you, so be it. If it means you sit with them til
They sleep so be it. Eventually it will get better

Please read this.

You sleep in a cycle.
Non rem a deep heavy sleep. Lasts about an hour and a half.
Rem dream sleep a productive sleep.
Then you partially wake.

When you partially wake you will wake up if something has changed. Like you need the loo, your partner is snoring , your cold. If you don't need the loo, aren't cold etc you'll go straight back into the cycle and go back to sleep.

With children if something has changed when they hit the partial wakening they will wake up. This is about every 3 hours.

If when they went to sleep and you were for instance - in the room , then not when they hit partial wakening. Dummy in , then out. Light on then off. Fell asleep On the sofa, in your arms , in buggy etc , then put in bed.

A child needs to go to sleep and stay that way to help prevent partial wakening.

Rapid return to help them fall asleep. Do the night routine. No more than 15 mins and leave the room.

They cry, shout etc. You go back in. Don't talk. Just lay them down and walk out.

They cry, shout etc. You go back in, don't talk. Just lay them down.

You do this repeatedly. Don't change it. They know you'll come back to them but don't get what they want. Don't falter. You will go back I. And in a million times that night. And over the next 5 nights. Then they get it and go to sleep.

You falter. They know how far to push it and they will.

It's hard. They don't go to grandparents sleep over for a few months to crack it. They need consistent routine. May be they don't stay away for a while. Until it's set in as normal.

Try sleep meditation for children, you can google and find them. From lullabies for babies to sleep meditation for children with interesting stories, told in monotone voices. Also rain, storms and waves meditation for older children. From my experience it does help, especially for anxious children.

We had mattress on floor in our room for years. Rule was child could
Come through whenever they wanted but shouldn't wake us

My mum could have written your post... 30 years ago! I was your DDs. The thing that helped me was when the GP told me I didnt have to sleep. He said, I had to stay in my room, relax, read, etc but i didnt have to sleep. Once that pressure was gone I felt much better. It didnt feel like i had to sleep and i was being naughty for not sleeping. It helped me relax and... fall asleep.
Also I have kids myself now and Kids sleep is like the lottery. You havent done anything wrong. My eldest didnt sleep through the night until she was 2; my youngest slept through from 4 weeks old. Did the EXACT same things with both of them.
Can you describe the bed time routine?
Are they allowed to play in their rooms? Have you explained that they dont have to sleep but they have to stay in their rooms because you have stuff to do? Mummy and daddy love them very much but they need grown up time now?

I really feel for you. Not sleeping is the worst

Neither of my two were good sleepers when they were younger - they are now 10 and 8.

A few things that helped...

Putting a blow up bed on the floor of our room. So if one of them came through in the night, they could settle down next to me with minimal disruption. We don't need it at all now.

Having a set time period for visits while they fall asleep. We used to sit with DS2 until he dropped off, but it could take ages. We now sit with him for 10 mins and then go up to see him every 20 mins. Our evenings are a bit disrupted, but he goes to sleep fairly quickly now most nights. When the visits were random, he'd lie awake worrying about when we would next come up.

I found reward and punishment didn't help at all. It just caused us all to be stressed at bedtime and grumpy in the morning. Try to take the emotion out if it for now.

Can you study in the hallway next to their open bedroom doors? Don't chat, just be a reassuring presence?