My children have never slept and it’s tearing us apart. Please help.

[2020in2020]

Another night of tears and shouting. We have 2 DD’s aged 7 and 4 - yes, that’s 7 and 4 years old. Neither has ever reliably slept through the night and it has now got to the point where I start to physically shake at the onset of bedtime routine as it causes so much anxiety.

We have tried everything. They co-slept at birth, in cot at 6 months. Controlled crying, gradual retreat, gro-clock, god knows how many night lights, reward charts, bribery, punishment, moving them in together, moving them back apart, redecorating bedrooms, new beds... literally everything.

They both struggle to fall asleep. The 4 year old has to have someone with her but she can take up to an hour to fall asleep, and always wakes in the night and either comes to us or I go to her bed.

The 7 year old can read herself to sleep and has slept through occasionally but it never lasts and recently she’s started claiming she can’t fall asleep.

It’s making all 4 of us absolutely miserable. I can’t seem to find anything UK based about older children not sleeping and sleep training has not worked. Believe me I have tried. We absolutely can not afford a private sleep consultant and I’m not convinced it would work. Does anyone know if I went to the GP they could give me anything? I spend most nights in tears and as I write this my husband is crying with my 7 year old as they had a huge argument as we actually came to bed early and she woke us up. I honestly can’t cope with this anymore.

[persistentwoman]

That's great news OP. Well done to you both.
If I might - remember, consistency is the key. The same (boring) message and ignoring all attempts to distract you both from your aim. Children do it all the time - they learn very early on that if parent wants them to do something, a quick diversionary tactic gets the parent away from the original request following wherever the child leads.
So stick to your guns - be deeply boring in response to any tactics - repeat and return to bed, ignoring all whataboutery. You know from last night that all the chaos and drama is learned behaviour. You are now helping them unlearn that and adopt behaviour that is better for both their health and wellbeing - as well as yours.
Good luck tonight.

[Harrysmummy246]

And yes, I have had to gradually stop myself just climbing in with him when he's woken in the night. If he needs us now, we go back to 'blow kiss....' and he snuggles back down.

Moshi only goes on when mummy and daddy are going out of the room etc.

But it's all been gradual.

[Harrysmummy246]

@2020in2020

Sorry lots more replies as I was typing!

I would be happy if they stayed in their rooms quietly, but I worry about them getting enough sleep. We do get out and about walking the dog most days and they both do a physical activity once a week.

Thank you for all your messages.

I do think my DH could help more, he rarely puts them to bed and when he does he just tries to fob it off and tells them to go to sleep and immediately comes downstairs. I get that he might be trying to change it but he KNOWS they won’t and I always end up just going up to deal eith it. Christmas Day was ruined as this happened at my mums house. I said I wanted just one night where I didn’t have to do bedtime, he said he would but he just put them in bed then came straight back down. Obviously they cried so I had to sort it out and I just stayed with them until 10pm by which time I was done with the evening. And when I try a new technique he doesn’t get involved. We have had marriage problems last year and this was something I brought up, he promised to help but he doesn’t really. I do feel for him as he gets stressed out by this too.

So it's a DH problem as well.

DS is 3y6mo now- We started alternating nights for bedtime some time last year and after a few when I had to just go out so I couldn't hear anything and so DS knew it really meant daddy was doing bedtime, that element has improved hugely.

He can still take time to fall asleep but we have a routine of bath, story, he 'reads' to himself then tuck in, Moshi story on and blow kisses with 'night night sleep well, see you in the morning'. For DH, it's always been this way- he was pretty much told to leave DS alone the first time he did bedtime. For me, I've been gradually retreating from cuddling in bed to holding hands in a chair to now I generally snuggle while we read then do the night night routine.

The bedtime parent then watches over the monitor from our room, occasionally going to rescue a teddy (never occurs to DS to get out of bed?!?!) or take him for a wee. It's getting to the point we could actually, probably, come downstairs and leave him to it so we take a little longer to respond to the daft prevarication, or once we can see he's stopped messing about and is drifting towards sleep (so once the headstands etc stop)

It is hard but it is unfair for it all to be on you

[StinkySaurus]

Hope things are going better OP.

To all the posters suggesting OP goes to the GP, I went to the GP about sleep issues When my one was two and was told just to shut the door and walk away. Completely unhelpful and dismissive. Do people actually have a positive example of talking to the GP about sleep?

[babbafett]

@2020in2020 that sounds great. Divide and conquer! I'm sure 4 year will follow suit as well. Great that you are getting the support from DH too

[Mogwaimug]

Try looking at this the other way around.

What are you doing with them in the day? How much time do you spend with them in the day? I wonder if they are behaving in this way for your attention at night.

[2020in2020]

Thanks everyone for all the advice and messages.

It was a bit of the dark night of the soul for me the other night so I tried to be positive last night and concentrate on the 7 year old as she causes the most hassle. So what we did last night and are trying to do now for the foreseeable:

We all ate before they went to bed. DH and I are vegan and the kids aren’t so usually they eat at 5ish and we eat after they go to sleep, but I realised that is stressing me out and eating into the evening so we all ate together which was nice.

DH had a big chat with them when he got home from work explaining that we all need to change bedtime so that no one ends up crying but they need to do as we say and it will be better for everyone. They were on board with this!

DD7 was put to bed by DH while I put DD4 to bed. He read her some of her book, she read a few pages out loud to him then he told her he was going downstairs and she could read or write or colour, she didn’t have to go to sleep but she was not to cry or call out to us or get out of bed unless it was for a wee. When I had finished with DD4 I went in and said good night and again told her she didn’t have to go to sleep, but she had to leave us alone. I did a few jobs upstairs so she could hear me bustling about and when I went downstairs I popped my head in again and told her where I was going and said goodnight again. She was really good and slept by herself, all night, until 8am!

I’ll keep you all posted. Our plan has always been to move them into a big bedroom together by March, but we need to do some DIY first so we can fit into DD7’s old room. My plan is when they are in a room together again, to bring DD4 on board with what we do with the 7 year old.

I really appreciate all the lovely advice and reassurance, thank you.

[Girlwhowearsglasses]

I thought of something else -
If you are going to GP, and maybe hope to get referred to a sleep clinic or similar (what you should ask for), its worth knowing that they will always ask you to fill out a sleep diary for a week or so first, and also they will want you to have prectised 'sleep hygiene'. (they will probably give you a leaflet).

If you do the diary yourself and take it to the GP, and also do your research and can say that you have indeed practised 'sleep hygiene' first then you may save some time and be taken seriously.

There used to be a sleep trakcer app made by Dr Tany Byron and the Evelina Childrn's Hopsital called 'Kids Sleep Doctor' but I think it may be discontinued: pretty sure there are now lots of tracking apps similar though.

Sleep hygiene is all the obvious things that you already know like consistent sleep times, winding down before bed, staying in your bed even though you can't sleep, etc etc.

[formerbabe]

My point of view is that if they are both nt then at 4/7 they should be able to understand that their behaviour is negatively impacting their parents. If my dc can't sleep, and they're not ill or upset, I tell them that they don't have to sleep but they do have to lie down, rest and not disturb everyone else.

I'd go down the bribery/sticker chart route

[Branleuse]

I would ask your GP for help. They could refer to a sleep clinic or a paeditrician who could prescribe melatonin

[Bumblebee1980a]

We struggled we our DS at bedtime too. I realised that it's wasn't the time he was going to bed as such but the routine. He needs the same routine every night.

Recently I purchased a visual timetable which has 35 different card symbols based around life at home. You pick 5 for the morning / evening routine so your DC knows what the routine is. I would say my DS did know the routine but he loved the pictures telling him what was happening. One morning he even had a wash, got dressed, brushed his teeth and hair independent just by looking at the pictures.

Regarding the evening at 6pm every night I give him a 10 minute bath (can be shorter but any longer and he starts splashing around), pjs, book and bed. It took a little while (maybe a week or so) and we did exactly the same routine every evening. After the book I would lie next to him bed for 5 minutes and then say I'm going to get my pjs on or have some dinner and tell him I will come back up and in the mean time he needs to try and go to sleep. I put his lullaby on (it puts stars on the ceiling) and leave the hall light on. Sometimes he would stand on the stairs and I would immediately put him back into bed (using a gentle tone and encouragement).

Obviously Christmas has got in the way of our routine and he's been sharing the bed with me. I am starting the routine again tonight as he has pre school in the morning. I will have a chat to him this afternoon before he gets tired and show him the visual timetable and discuss this evenings routine so he knows.

Good luck

[pumpkinpie01]

I haven't read everyone's replies so I apologise if this has already been mentioned but have you tried a laptop playing with calming music ? My daughter is a lot older but has real trouble getting to sleep and has awful night terrors and sleep paralysis and she has found a certain app that plays and gets her to sleep and if she wakes up she has no trouble getting back to sleep.

[WhereverIGoddamnLike]

Your husband has the right idea. Maybe you should try backing him up instead of going in and pandering to them. If it was one of your kids, then maybe you could explain it away as just them being them or a medical thing but it's both and you are the common denominator.

Stop pandering. Put them into hed at bedtime, read the story and have the cuddle ans then say "it is time to rest and sleep now so you need to stay in your room". If they get up, you do not engage. Just repeat it and put them back into bed. Your husband might be angering you because he isnt bothering but he is putting them in and saying goodnight and leaving. You need to be doing the same. They will learn, but it will be a hard few weeks because you've allowed the nonsense for so long. You've made a rod for your own back. You and your husband need to sort it out, agree on what you will say and stick to it no matter what. The grandparents as well.

[shamalidacdak]

Some options:
Wear them out every day to the point of exhaustion.
Absolutely no sugar or any food with chemicals or dyes.
Strict bedtime routine
Let them listen to soft music or audio stories to fall asleep
Warm lavender bath and massage right before bed
Melatonin if you can get it
Honestly my nephew was like this and he only started sleeping after being diagnosed with ADHD at age 12. He still uses melatonin.

[Iminaglasscaseofemotion]

What actually happens when they wake during the night? You said they take a long time to fall asleep at their initial bed time, but what do they do if they wake up in the night and how often do they wake up?
What time is bedtime?

[Overseasmom100]

I second just doing the easiest of options. My DS slept with me in my bed every night DH slept in his bed. I would put DS to bed lie next to him.until he went to sleep even patting him down... then go down sometimes 2 hours BUT we all slept. If he woke in the night I just said sssshhh back to sleep cuddled up and we went back to sleep.

Before we had spent years battling making us all miserable so one night I just said it cant last forever.

At 12...my DS said he wanted to go in his own bed...yes 12 but I dont care looking back.

[Cleverpolly3]

@2020in2020

Thank you knitpicker, I’ve heard of it too but it seems to only be for children with conditions such as ADHD. I am going to call my doctor in the morning, she is lovely and aware of my mental health issues so I am going to say not only am I worried for my children’s health and development - which I am, they always have dark circles and are frequently grumpy - it’s also adding to my own issues. I wish there was a magic wand. My 4 year old is now snuggled in bed with me and I love her so much but I just can’t keep doing this.

No it’s not restricted to that
My two year old who has not been assessed as on the spectrum was prescribed it after two years of utter sleep hell with him
It doesn’t always work. It didn’t in his case but he is but better a year on. Still in bed with me though!

Ask about melatonin but you might need a referral to secondary care to get it

Sorry I’m is what this sort of thing every night does to you as my middle child didn’t sleep properly for over three years either so I’m five years down the line with two of my three

[JustDavesWife]

Op you can buy kids Melatonin gummies online, it will come from abroad but shipping isn't usually too long. 5mg should do it, not long term just enough to break the cycle. You can buy it in the supermarket in the states!

[ugglyduckling]

I had this problem with my children and it was so very hard something that really really helped me was the rabbit that wants to fall asleep. I was at my wit's end surviving on a few hours sleep working full time etc etc. I'd tried everything.. My friend told me about this book I was sceptical but I'd tried everything else. I downloaded an audio copy. I explained to both children about the book and how much it would help. The first night I played it 4 times untill they went to sleep but by the end of say 10 days I could put it on leave the room and by the time it had finished they were asleep. It worked anywhere too not just at home... If we were on holiday or sleepovers at my mums house... It really worked for me.. Its worth a try

[MusicalTrifleMonkey]

Have you tried Sarah Ockwell Smith? I think she does stuff on children before teenagers, plus you can contact her to ask questions via instagram and I think she would likely support you.

I really feel for you. I am struggling with lack of sleep with a baby, but a 7 and 4 year old must be so so tough. I hope you get the support that you need from your GP. You’re an amazing mum.’don’t let your doctors fob you off, keep pushing to get that help. X

[kulaexchange]

Mine are the same age and exactly the same op. Reading with interest. You're not a shit mother, you just have shit sleepers.

[funksoulmother]

You mentioned that you had some marriage troubles, do you and husband argue at night once the kids are in bed?
I personally struggled with getting to sleep through childhood and refused to stay in my own bedroom at night because my sleep would be interrupted and I would be woken up late at night by my parents arguing. It may not apply in your situation, but I thought it worth mentioning in case.

[persistentwoman]

@2020in2020

Lots of ideas here that I hadn’t thought of - plus PP’s are right in that I think we haven’t stuck at anything for long enough -DH always gets fed up.
And I get so tired I just climb into bed with them.

We have the Moshi app, *@MrsBtobe1208* , they both love it I do too but I have to listen to the stories with them!

Lots of good advice on here OP but you nailed it here:
I think we haven't stuck at anything for long enough
Whatever strategy you choose (Jo Frost's was mentioned earlier) make a plan, decide what language you'll use and how you'll implement it and then stick to it. Your children have learnt how to divert you - arguing, crying, appealing for attention. Don't be drawn in.
Just give your instruction - "lie down and rest until you sleep" or whatever you think best and ignore all attempts to distract you from that task.
Be like a broken record and if you're returning them to bed ignore all distractions and demands. Just repeat calmly and withdraw /go silent / whatever strategy you have decided. Carry on all night if necessary but don't get drawn in to their diversion.

You need to plan for this - talk it through with your husband and work out how to do it. Tell him that if you can crack this now with some intensive efforts, the whole family benefits. Children must learn to self soothe and sleep and the adults must put in place the boundaries / techniques to help them.
Good luck.