My children have never slept and it’s tearing us apart. Please help.

[2020in2020]

Another night of tears and shouting. We have 2 DD’s aged 7 and 4 - yes, that’s 7 and 4 years old. Neither has ever reliably slept through the night and it has now got to the point where I start to physically shake at the onset of bedtime routine as it causes so much anxiety.

We have tried everything. They co-slept at birth, in cot at 6 months. Controlled crying, gradual retreat, gro-clock, god knows how many night lights, reward charts, bribery, punishment, moving them in together, moving them back apart, redecorating bedrooms, new beds... literally everything.

They both struggle to fall asleep. The 4 year old has to have someone with her but she can take up to an hour to fall asleep, and always wakes in the night and either comes to us or I go to her bed.

The 7 year old can read herself to sleep and has slept through occasionally but it never lasts and recently she’s started claiming she can’t fall asleep.

It’s making all 4 of us absolutely miserable. I can’t seem to find anything UK based about older children not sleeping and sleep training has not worked. Believe me I have tried. We absolutely can not afford a private sleep consultant and I’m not convinced it would work. Does anyone know if I went to the GP they could give me anything? I spend most nights in tears and as I write this my husband is crying with my 7 year old as they had a huge argument as we actually came to bed early and she woke us up. I honestly can’t cope with this anymore.

[lissie123]

Get your gp!

[Whereland]

I'm so sorry. This all sounds so tough, I really feel for you.
Can I ask about their daily routine? Obviously they don't nap at that age but do they have regular and set snack and meal times? How long before bed time do they have dinner? Are they getting enough fresh air and exercise? Much screen time?
Everything in their day will feed into their night.
I'm working with a sleep consultant at the moment for my 3 year old. Were focussing on the grow clock and he gets positive reinforcement in the form of stickers or little books when he manages to stay in bed without calling me until the sun comes up. If he calls me or cries he doesn't get the prize and we keep going until he "wins". If he calls or cries in the night we just continuously return him to bed, reminding him to stay in bed until the sun comes up.
Could you try this approach and he really consistent with it, like for at least 3/4 weeks?

[coronafiona]

@2020in2020 my eldest was prescribed slow release melatonin for sleep issues so persevere

[2020in2020]

Sorry lots more replies as I was typing!

I would be happy if they stayed in their rooms quietly, but I worry about them getting enough sleep. We do get out and about walking the dog most days and they both do a physical activity once a week.

Thank you for all your messages.

I do think my DH could help more, he rarely puts them to bed and when he does he just tries to fob it off and tells them to go to sleep and immediately comes downstairs. I get that he might be trying to change it but he KNOWS they won’t and I always end up just going up to deal eith it. Christmas Day was ruined as this happened at my mums house. I said I wanted just one night where I didn’t have to do bedtime, he said he would but he just put them in bed then came straight back down. Obviously they cried so I had to sort it out and I just stayed with them until 10pm by which time I was done with the evening. And when I try a new technique he doesn’t get involved. We have had marriage problems last year and this was something I brought up, he promised to help but he doesn’t really. I do feel for him as he gets stressed out by this too.

[ivfbeenbusy]

My 5 year old doesn't sleep through the night and I'm due twins shortly and am feeling pretty scared about it! We've tried everything too - what seems to have worked this week though is a little portable blue tooth speaker - she'll sing along to songs and fall asleep in her own bed 🥳 (novelty may have worn off next week though and we'll be back to square one). If she wakes in the night I try and get to her before she gets out of bed - I've realised over the last week or so that whilst she seems completely awake, talks to me, eyes open etc and is insistent on coming in our bed if I sit and talk to her and persuade her to lie down she'll go straight back to sleep. Now I know this doesn't overcome the issue of the waking me up in the middle of the night in the first place but at least I don't end up With no sleep at all because she's in the middle Of our bed with her foot in my face

[JuniLoolaPalooza]

Total solidarity here, OP, mine are 2 and 6 and same story.
6 year old I will sit with til 9.30 then I leave. She will sometimes accept it, sometimes scream the house down. I find going in and going out works sometimes, sometimes not. No idea how we will get the 2 year old out of it. Good luck, some good ideas here

[Changeismyname]

OP I have no advice that hasn’t already been suggested upthread (I was going to say a weighted blanket or podcasts/audiobooks) but I have to say that you absolutely are not a shit mother. You’re doing everything you can, and you’re asking for advice here and planning on accessing the services you can tomorrow for their help too. Sleep deprivation is literal torture. Be kind to yourself. It is not your fault.

[HelloDaisy]

I can completely sympathise with you as ds was a terrible sleeper and I felt constantly exhausted.

What is your general day routine? Do they get up early, exercise, time on screens etc? What is your bedtime routine?

The first point to deal with is to remove the tears and emotion which is easier said than done I know. Can you and dh take alternate nights for a while so that the other gets a full nights sleep?

[Ohdoleavemealone]

My eldest was like this. Co slept as a baby and then needed to have someone sat next to him as he fell asleep and would always come into us in the night.
We got him an Alexa and told him that if he stayed in his bed for a whole month we would buy him a cabin bed. It worked!
Turns out he has adhd which may have contributed to the sleep issues but although he still struggles to nod off sometimes, he stays asleep.

[Comfortzone]

Tell them school has sent a letter telling pupils to be asleep by 8pm each night. Worked with my 2 absolute horrific sleepers who didn't sleep for 3 years. Hey are old enough to realise that daytime is awake time, night time we sleep.

Maybe time to just ignore their needs for constant affection and so on at bedtime. Can be done in a firm but fair manner.

Also worked was saying if you get into bed and lights out by 8pm you get 50p per day and have a treat reward chart set up so at weekend they add up their totals

Get schoolteacher to have a word to them when they get back or to write them a 'fake' sleep letter Worth a try

[Fizzydrinks123]

Agree, Melatonin was the thing that held one of my dc, it is worth asking again - even without behaviour issues - not sleeping is an issue.

If you're able to afford a private paediatrician appointment might be worth looking at as this isn't the sort of thing that is easy to cope with long term.

Best wishes

[glasshalfsomething]

Hi @2020in2020

Genuinely curious question. How do they sleep when they’re not with you? Have to ever been away overnight? What about if/when they stay at grandparents?

[queenmother]

Please don't blame yourself you having them close hasn't set them up for bad sleep. My 5 year old is the opposite and slept in our bed from birth. He has no trouble sleeping and was in his own room from 1. My little girl is totally different, again had slept in our bed from birth and wakes up multiple times a night. It's nothing you've done I promise. Don't beat yourself up about it.

[orangejuicer]

I have no advice for sleep methods but it sounds like you and your DH are desperate for sleep/a break. Do you take it in turns to do 'bedtime'? Could you have a couple of hours out of the house to study if it's your DH's turn? Also suggest you have the odd night on the sofa just to get some sleep.

[Couchbettato]

I do think it needs a medical approach.

But I also think at 4 and 7 if they don't want to/can't sleep they should at least be able to stay in their own rooms and play quietly.

When I struggled to sleep, I was told to get up and do something. Not just stay in bed, because it creates bad sleep associations with bed. But to do something until I was tired again.

Letting them play on their own in a childproofed room with beds on the floor for them to enter and exit at their choosing will give you some reprieve at least.

[MrsBtobe1208]

My friends daughter used to be a bad sleeper. She uses the "Moshi" app. She said it's changed bedtime completely for her & would recommend it to anyone ☺️

[OnlyFoolsnMothers]

What happens if you just leave the 7 yr old for long enough?

[AIMD]

** How have I got this so wrong and fucked up to this point. It’s not normal. I feel like a totally shit mother. I was only good at this when they were babies.

You need to stop with this type of thinking. It’s going to make you feel like shit and is not going to help. Having children who don’t sleep well does not make you a bad mum. You’re just tired a d have reached the end of your tether.

What worked for my son was the following (I’m sure you’ve tried it all but I’ll mention it in case there is something there that might be helpful). I told him one night he was a big kid and was capable of sleeping on his own and that I would be leaving after his bedtime book and that he would be ok and I would check on him lots. I told him I would be next door in our bedroom sorting the clothes. Then I made enough noise for him to know I was close and I checked on him like every 2-3 minutes. After he eventually fell asleep I left a load of notes in his room with picture on and in the morning I told him I left him a note every time I checked on him over night. Over the next few weeks I continued but slowly started to space out how often I was checking on him. It took a while but eventually I was able to leave him up in bed and just check on him every 30mins or so until he was asleep. I guess it was offering him reassurance that we were always close and he was safe and gradually building up his own confidence.

We also found audio books helpful as a distraction and something calm for him to listen to.

My sons issue was bedtime anxiety though so obviously it depends on what the underlying cause of the sleep issue is.

I really hope you find some way to get rest soon. Please do call on family/friends for help if you need it.

[2020in2020]

Lots of ideas here that I hadn’t thought of - plus PP’s are right in that I think we haven’t stuck at anything for long enough -DH always gets fed up.
And I get so tired I just climb into bed with them.

We have the Moshi app, @MrsBtobe1208 , they both love it I do too but I have to listen to the stories with them!

[AIMD]

Calm app is good too op.
Though maybe I only think that because they have Matthew McCongehy reason a story and I have I soft spot for him!

[jobsagudden]

Hi OP

Really feel for you! And can completely relate mine are a bit younger (4&2) but both absolutely awful sleepers and neither have ever slept through the night.

DG's bought a tonie style thing for DD1 for Christmas, it reads stories, you can record stories on it and it has a light projector. since getting it she has asked us to leave her to listen to it and is now going to sleep on her own (since Christmas). She is still waking up and coming through in the night but massive difference at bed time.

The other thing I've read about is magnesium deficiency? Apparently can cause sleep issues, could be worth looking into?

And just wanted to say you sound like a really lovely mum! Some kids just don't sleep.

[MrsBtobe1208]

@AIMD might download it for myself 🙈

[2020in2020]

To answer a few questions, our parents are absolute saints and pre covid regularly have them overnights, even take them on holiday or look after them while we go on a mini break. They do sit with them til they go to sleep, at MILs they occasionally sleep through, but MIL has been known to sleep on a mattress on their floor. My mum sleeps with them when she has them. I feel bad because my nephew and niece who are both younger both sleep through so it’s only my kids who they have to do this with!

[RecipeStealingBitch]

That sounds so hard. My eldest isn’t a great sleeper but he loves the Peace Out videos on YouTube (to listen to, not watch) - there’s lots to choose from and they really help him relax. Weighted blankets sound good too, I’ve read they make you feel snug and safe

[FloreanFortescue]

4 year old - we have a toniebox which my DD listens to after our story together.

7 year old - really should know better if it's not a specific medical issue and needs to be setting an example.

I'm sure you'll have done this but I would be removing ANYTHING with a blue backlight before bed by at least 2 hours, including TV.

Might sound mad but kid yoga/meditation before bed?

Reward charts have to be motivating. What do they get when they get 3 stickers? 5 stickers? 10?

Similar to elf on the shelf - bed time fairy is visiting to check everyone is asleep? She can leave a note to say she was impressed or disappointed. She could leave the stars for the chart.

If you really think this is beyond what you can deal with using parenting methods then GP is absolutely your best bet.

I really do wish you the best of luck OP, sleepless nights are the pits