My children have never slept and it’s tearing us apart. Please help.

[2020in2020]

Another night of tears and shouting. We have 2 DD’s aged 7 and 4 - yes, that’s 7 and 4 years old. Neither has ever reliably slept through the night and it has now got to the point where I start to physically shake at the onset of bedtime routine as it causes so much anxiety.

We have tried everything. They co-slept at birth, in cot at 6 months. Controlled crying, gradual retreat, gro-clock, god knows how many night lights, reward charts, bribery, punishment, moving them in together, moving them back apart, redecorating bedrooms, new beds... literally everything.

They both struggle to fall asleep. The 4 year old has to have someone with her but she can take up to an hour to fall asleep, and always wakes in the night and either comes to us or I go to her bed.

The 7 year old can read herself to sleep and has slept through occasionally but it never lasts and recently she’s started claiming she can’t fall asleep.

It’s making all 4 of us absolutely miserable. I can’t seem to find anything UK based about older children not sleeping and sleep training has not worked. Believe me I have tried. We absolutely can not afford a private sleep consultant and I’m not convinced it would work. Does anyone know if I went to the GP they could give me anything? I spend most nights in tears and as I write this my husband is crying with my 7 year old as they had a huge argument as we actually came to bed early and she woke us up. I honestly can’t cope with this anymore.

[Rhinosaurus]

You may find information here useful - it is intended for children with brain conditions but could work for any child

cerebra.org.uk/download/sleep-cards/

[LMW1990]

Compression sheets (amazon) and the moshi app. Went from what you describe to sleeping through in the space of one night!

[Mothersruin123]

You can get children's bedtime meditations on YouTube which we use successfully with my DD when she is struggling to get to sleep. New Horizons do good ones. Might be worth a try?

[StickTheKettleOnAlice]

I know I'll probably get flamed but have you tried lullabies etc on an ipad? You can control what they watch on in a kids mode (so just set 5 specific little videos if required) and then set timer so it goes off itself after say half an hour. This worked for my dc who was a very bad sleeper. We will read acouple of books and then he gets his little iPad and when the moon screen saver comes on he knows time to sleep if he hasn't fallen asleep already.

[SatyajitRayFan]

Maybe you've already tried this but have you made sure that they are really full when they've finished their dinner. A belly full of food should put them off to sleep easily. It's helped a friend of mine whose son wouldn't sleep like your daughters.

[babbafett]

I dont know how you are still standing OP! You arent bad mother, quite the opposite. And I doubt it's anything you really did that created these issues. Unless you put them to bed with a cup of coffee and an episode of law and order on their iPad, I would say sleep is probably naturally hard for them.
Ring your GP, tell your DP you are taking turns and give whatever advice or tips you get a good 2weeks to take effect. If its possible, you and DP to take annual leave so you both can focus all your energy on resolving this. You can than nap during the day leaving you with the mental and physical energy for a tough night. Not nice to spend all your time off on this but its better than a year of broken sleep.
Your DP need to cop on too, it will never be resolved unless ye are both 100% on the same page with the same level of commitment

[Cakecrumbsinmybra]

I really sympathise OP, but I do also think that just a walk each day is maybe not enough physical exercise? I know it's tricky at the moment but could you wear them out a bit outside, in addition to the great suggestions on here?

[Fluffycloudland77]

You can buy melatonin online.

No bloody wonder you have relationship problems.

[ColourMeExhausted]

OP you poor soul. That sounds absolutely hellish. You are not a bad parent, this is not your fault! Some DC just don't sleep - often for years - and you have the misfortune to have two non sleepers.

Both my DC have struggled with sleepers. DD 5 sleeps well now but DS3 is still waking, and over the past five years me and DH have slept in the same bed only a few times. It's not good, so I really sympathise.

So much good advice here but I'd second the suggestion to have them sleeping together if possible, in a bed together if you have it. Sounds crazy but it's working for my friend right now.

Good luck, I often think us parents of long term non sleepers deserve a medal (or two nights of blissful child free sleep in a hotel...)

[Jennygentle]

That sounds really draining, OP. You have my utmost sympathy.
Melatonin can be obtained easily online. I’m not recommending it as such, because it’s prescription-only in this country, but it works for my friend’s poor sleeper.

[midnightstar66]

What time are you putting them to bed/expecting them to be asleep OP?

[AllBellyandBoobs]

We have a 9 and 6 year old and have only in the last month had both stay in their own beds all night. You are not alone and you have done nothing wrong. Some children struggle with sleep!
I co-slept until they were happy to go to sleep in their own beds. We have a super king which helped. My youngest still came through every night until December 2020. They have a set bed time, they listen to audio books until they fall asleep although we still get shouted up to the 6 year old occasionally for yet another hug . Audiobook wise, we had success with The Little Elephant Who Wants To Fall Asleep, though they did eventually get bored of that and now they listen to whatever stories they are interested in.

[ArnoldBee]

What happens if you leave them? My 8 year is currently awake and its 10.10pm however he always has a solid 8 hour sleep, gets up in plenty of time for school and has 110% energy and concentration.
My eldest when put to bed at 8pm always used to wake at 5.30am so that didn't work either. Me personally much to my parents delight didnt sleep until I was 5 then never stopped.
I think you need to concentrate on one thing whether its getting an uninterrupted nights sleep which will make you feel better then work on the time once you've recharged your batteries?

[endofthelinefinally]

Your DH has to get on board with helping you. This needs both of you to be consistent and work as a team. If he won't, you will have to look at a shift system where he does the mornings, meaning everything that needs doing, from the minute they wake up, while you get a long lie in, undisturbed.
Starting the bed time routine early can help, well before they go into overdrive. No screens. Bath time can be overstimulating for some children.
I was advised by a good friend who is a speech therapist, to play quiet, classical music before bed time and it worked very well to calm everyone down.
I had to sit down with dh and tell him that if he couldn't get home by 6pm, he would be better getting home at 8pm and just getting his paperwork done at work instead of at home. If he walked in the door at 7pm the dc would get overexcited and be awake till 9pm. Timing is everything.
Lack of sleep is torture. I am so sorry, it takes over your life.

[Tianatiers]

OP I sympathise as I have a 4 and 6 year old the same. The only thing that keeps me sane is that my DH and I are a team with it. I think this is your problem, sounds like you do the lion's share and if that was the case I would have totally lost the plot by now.

So me and DH take it in turns to do bedtime which means staying with them until they are asleep. Anyone who can say goodnight and walk out while their children are still awake, I salute you, this is just not an option for us.

At least by taking it in turns though, no matter how hard it is (and it can take 2 or 3 hours some nights until they're both asleep) we know we've got the next night off.

We have a solid routine. 7pm brush teeth, go to the toilet, get drinks of water by their beds, into pjs and then 2 stories, they share a room and pick one story each. Then they get into bed and we sit next to the bed, reading, catching up on emails, mumsnetting, I sometimes work as I'm part time flexible hours. I let them look at books quietly if they're not tied enough to go straight to sleep but if they try to talk to me or each other, or say they're not tired or any funny business I just repeat "I love you goodnight" until they get the idea.

In the night the 4yo always wakes and whoever wakes up first (usually DH as he's a lighter sleeper) will go and sleep in the spare room with her. If 6yo wakes the other (usually me) will bring her into our bed. We all get back to sleep quickly and this is what works for us.

This too shall pass. Just do what you've got to do to survive. If I was a single parent I'd just sleep in the same room as the children for ease until they grew out of it. If I had an unhelpful partner, I would kick his useless arse out of our bed and just sleep with the two kids to survive!

[ginsparkles]

My 8 and a half year old has only just started sleeping alone. We have had to do the me lying there until she sleeps thing. I have now put an Amazon echo into her room and play chill out music to her and she falls asleep listening to it. Once she's asleep she's gone now, but it's taken a long time so I feel you pain. I accepted for ages that I slept with her and daddy in the spare room. It wasn't ideal but whatever gave us all some rest. No real advice just support!

[Wbeezer]

Weighted blankets are quite expensive, i have heard people recommend old fashioned sheets and blankets to tuck children in really tightly. I remember liking the feeling at Grannies house , even though i was used to duvets.

[Fishlegs]

Oh op, it sounds so stressful. Mine have had sleep problems too, I spent months revising for my professional exams from an iPad whilst sitting in a dark room in the evenings waiting for them to go to sleep.

You’ve had loads of good ideas but I wonder if it would be worth setting up a rota with your husband so that one night one of you is ‘on’ and the other is completely ‘off duty’, so doesn’t have to put them to sleep, doesn’t have to get up in the night etc.

Also, at this stage I would totally focus on you getting the sleep you need and not worry if the kids are having enough sleep, it seems as though you are putting sooo much pressure on yourself.

[bigmamama]

I'm in a very similar boat. 4 year old Ds - has never ever slept through the night, goes to sleep reasonably well but can wake up maybe upto 4/5 times he cries until one of us gives in and sleeps with him. It's draining mentally and physically Iv cried so many times, it's not just once and then he goes back over it can go on for upto 15/20 mins at a time! Got prescribed melatonin it worked maybe 2/3 times he'd fall asleep faster but not stay asleep all night. He'd also be groggy occasionally when he woke on a morning.

18 month old Ds - now becoming the same as 4yr old, he can wake upto 10 times a night and sometimes will hold the dummy in his hand while he cries! Which then wakes the whole house up! Again goes to sleep reasonably well but just doesn't sleep through. I know he's only young but Iv tried all sorts with both of them.
Bed time routine is the same, tried lavender everything coz I love it anyway, all the sprays creams and plug ins, white noise, weighted blanket (for the eldest, he hated it) new bed new mattress new covers, recently decorated to spider man.
My mum often has him at a weekend so I only have to deal with the baby but he sleeps with her as she thinks it's ok. Very vicious circle as I hate it and she knows it but at the same time I need a break and I'm still trying to force the routine on the baby and I don't want her ruining it by letting him sleep with her also.
Il be following incase you make any progress I feel your pain @2020in2020

[AKissAndASmile]

I'd try them with Phenergan for a few nights to get yourself some much needed sleep. Who knows, it even might break the cycle.

[Designateddiver]

I bribed my ds! Was at the end of my tether and had tried everything. When he was about 8, he got a £1 if he stayed in his room and 50p if only came out once, nothing if 2 or more times. It worked to an extent, he is still an awful sleeper but stays in his room and is happy and doing well. It didn't cost me much, it just broke his habit of being up and down like a yoyo. Could be a dangerous, expensive idea if doesn't work! Wouldn't be suitable for the 4 Yr old. I sympathise with you, good luck

[RoseMartha]

If you dont feel you want to contact the GP. Have you tried self referral to school nurse. You should be able to find there number on your council web page or school web page.

[Wnikat]

Audiobooks to keep them company while they fall asleep?
Lots of really vigorous exercise. The cosmic yoga app has lots of kids yoga routines which last 30 mins and mine love.

[glassshoes]

Look up Sleep Scotland (not just for Scotland), they also have a helpline

[Ohalrightthen]

Have you tried just shutting the door and leaving them to it? Every night for a week, at least? Just let them get on with it.