4yo doesn't sleep and won't sleep for anyone else, on my knees with exhaustion

[Rosegold84]

Just that really.
4.5 year old DS. Doesn't sleep, never has from being a baby really. I am a single parent with no input from his dad since pregnancy, so totally on my own. I can be up anywhere from 10-18 times on a night, I have tried him in his own room, in my bed, leaving him to it, you name it I've done it. Anything less than 10 wake ups is good, anything between 5-10 is excellent but he has never ever slept through and never woken up less than 3 times in one night.
GP not interested and won't prescribe anything to help.
I am utterly beside myself with sleep deprivation, I haven't had a good nights sleep in years. My parents have tried a lot to try and have him to sleep, usually one weekend a month but without fail end up bringing him back in the middle of the night or 6 am as he just won't settle for them and screams all night long. I am so tired. What can I do, mumsnetters? I'm desperate for one night.
Next time my parents attempt it, I may well just turn my phone off and unplug landline and make myself totally uncontactable.....

@Rosegold84 If it helps, I think that you have done everything right, so far. This has to be an underlying issue though, and he needs to be sleep by a sleep clinic.

I feel so sorry for the both of you, this sleep deprivation must just be awful for a 4 year old and a single mum.

Good luck!

*Seen by a sleep clinic. Sorry! Now who has the sleep deprivation...

hot and stew spot on right. Rosegold I was just like your little boy when I was a child. I just couldn’t sleep, I really wanted to. It was scary and I remember sobbing, sitting on top of the stairs too scared to wake my parents as despite being great parents normally, at night I wasn’t allowed to disturb them. I felt scared and alone and would have been so grateful for comfort. You are doing an amazing job and your boy will remember how you guided him through this. My parents sought help far too late, but I ended up on melatonin which helped a lot, I do believe if my parents had had your great parenting skills my suffering would have been greatly reduced. Of course I didn’t want my parents to suffer and I definitely wasn’t playing up and testing boundaries, it was no fun and I would often fall asleep during the day as my body eventually couldn’t cope with no sleep. It wasn’t until I was in my 30s that I finally got help for myself and went to a sleep centre. My life is so much better now but I just wanted to be your boy’s voice to all those saying “testing boundaries” and “rod for your own back” nonsense. You’re a wonderful mum and don’t let ill informed people convince you otherwise. Hope you both get help soon 💐

@Rosegold84 I haven't read tft but it seems you've had a hard time. I was once where you are. I though I would die. I wanted someone to take him away because it was so awful.

My marriage dissolved. BUT. My eldest is now 16. He's still sparky and we still fall out but somehow you move through this and come out the other side and realise that you must've done something ok because they still love you in spite of being obnoxious teens!!

Not everyone's child works to a manual. My first didn't and I felt utterly useless.

As I said earlier cranial osteopathy had some effect. It wasn't a cure all but it helped. I then discovered he was autistic but that is equally not a cure all. I was told I was pandering/being soft etc mainly by my mil. I took no notice. My children are brilliant. They are who they are and it's hard.

It’s not you, you are quite right not to let him scream. Good luck st the Drs.

So this is going to sound like a stupid question but have you asked him why he screams or wakes up? It sounds a lot like night time separation anxiety (although quite an intense episode). Both of mine wake (4 and 2), although my 4yr Old had started to get better. I also read the No Cry Sleep Solution (which I didn’t really rate), and it mentions ensuring your child drinks plenty of water during the day. My ds would only drink milk at one point but as we’ve increased his water drinks I have actually noticed an improvement. You don’t mention if your ds have a comforter or a teddy (unless I’ve missed it)?

Sleep deprivation is hard. I hope you get some help soon

While I agree asking him why he wakes up may bear some fruit, the likely answer you’ll get from such a young child is “I don’t know”, I had no idea why it was happening to me but worth a shot anyway.

OP i think you need to push for a sleep study. This isn’t good for either of you.

FWIW ds was like this until he was 3 although he also took forever to go to sleep. I worried constantly how it would ever change and then one day it just did. Absolutely no idea why.

Also dd was an amazing sleeper - I wasn’t smug and rightly so because now she’s 7 and is going through a stage of getting terrified at bedtime and getting into a panic and taking an age to go to sleep. I don’t ignore her because her emotions are 100% genuine however exhausting and infuriating.

I hope you get some help and rest.

This sounds so hard, and you sound like a fantastic mum Rose. Some of the replies here display some very rigid, black and white thinking which is really unhelpful, not to mention accusatory and hurtful.

I didn’t sleep well as a child due to anxiety, but in my case I was older, having slept reasonably well as a very small child, as far as I’m aware. I did also have some physical health problems as a child which may or may not have had an effect on my sleep.

The anxiety could be about anything. When I was younger, giants and monsters were the focus of my fear. As I got older, it centred on fears about my parents dying; worrying that I was adopted and that my parents were keeping it a secret from me; worrying that I might be the only person in the world who was awake. Anything really. This went on till I was about 10 or 11, intermittently. I remember my parents putting a mattress on the floor of their bedroom and telling me I could go there if I needed to in the night, which I did now and then.

I realise this is probably not helpful to you OP, as I am only sharing an anecdote and have no advice, but just want to say that that phase of my childhood was difficult, and I suspect it would have been a lot more difficult if my parents had not responded with loving kindness as they did.

I felt so, so, so alone at night. I think that was the crux of it. I was quite a sensitive child. I’m grateful that my parents didn’t force me to be alone on those nights.

And for what it’s worth, I’ve turned out to be a reasonably normal adult. I can even sleep all night long in my own bed without needing any snowflake treatment 😉

DD was like this since she was a baby. Short 20 mins naps if i was lucky. Proper 5 am wakeups since she was 3 months. Various things worked long enough for mw to think I've cracked it and then desperately cry I broke the baby.

It went on for 3 years ...a few weeks of ok sleep....6 months of fuck my life. Up till 1 am and back up at 5-6 am.
We had a period of night terrors too because...why not?

It did improve in time though,especially once she started school. The best way to describe it is that she finally learned to be tired and that it was ok. She still gets up now sometimes(she's 6) ,but it's rare and she settles as soon as she climbs in bed with me so everyone sleeps.

It might sort itself out or not...but ask for help in the meantime. If you can keep a diary and record him during the night.

Good god, OP - you must be on your knees, I had no idea until reading your thread that any children slept that badly. I would definitely speak to your GP and ask to be referred to a sleep service. It sounds like that newborn sleep pattern we all stumbled through like zombies, but worse, and for 4 years. Awful!

I'd try two things :

Up the exercise and fresh air as a pp said. Sounds like he needs running ragged, famous five style

If this doesn't work, try tough love. He's 4. He is leading you a merry dance. Even if he's not asleep, he needs to be staying in bed.

Totally agree with camilia.

Btw if you live anywhere near Sheffield I see their paediatric sleep service specifically deals with night terrors.

Also I disagree with all the posters suggesting he is just messing you around. All our children mess us around but they do not wake us 10-15 times a night, because they simply do not wake that often, or have any wish to. I do not believe the situation you describe has been created by anything you have done or not done, and I think professional input would be appropriate.

really? What are you doing in the night with him when he wakes? At 4, if he really can’t sleep then surely he could play Lego in his room quietly if he doesn’t have any additional needs? Or even sit on an iPad in bed next to you if you’re that desperate for some sleep. I wouldn’t tolerate it from my kids at all. If they wake early, they play quietly in their rooms. You don’t need to get him a drink at his age, leave a non-spill cup in his room. It’s like parents don’t know how to parent these days!

Camiila You're hilarious. Not.

HeadOverMills how about you take into consideration that some children have health issues that mean no amount of begging, pleading etc will help them sleep.

I tackled my daughters sleep problem for 8 years, NOTHING I did worked. Then she was dx ASD, (with SPD and anxiety co-morpbid disorders) and it all fell into place. We now use meds for sleep.

It's highly ignorant to talk the way you do to someone who is struggling and asking for help. Just because YOU did xyz and it works for you, doesn't mean that it will work for all.

I have no experience but as I suffer with insomnia these things help:

I sleep with a fan on all night, it provides white noise and stops me overheating which often wakes me.

I wear a quality eye mask and have good blackout blinds to stop any light reaching me.

Lavender spray

Rescue remedy pastilles to sooth me.

Worst comes to worst ... Night Nurse liquid.

Sorry if it doesn’t help
Or sounds obvious, just trying to help x

Geez. You're getting a hard time here Rose. I've had two difficult sleepers - some kids just won't bloody stay asleep whatever you try! The people who swoop in and say to leave him to cry have NFI. That. Will. Not. Work. Go back to the GP or HV as has been suggested and get yourself some proper help and support

OP, GP and paediatrician. This is not usual and you need to rule out any underlying problems (ASD/ADHD spring to mind but that's because my son has these diagnoses. Anxiety also). Ignore all the run of the mill white noise/warm milk/lots of play outside advice. It's obviously all true and will help but waking up so often points to something much more serious. All the best.

Seriously, why is there a need to be a total dick to the OP? How do you think your words sound to a single mum on the brink? Why do you feel the need the need to be so cruel?

OP I really feel for you. I'm so sorry you've had to suffer like this. My DD was a multiple waker for 2.5 years and you do what you have to do to survive. Quite apart from the fact I don't agree with sleep training, I wouldn't have had the strength to see it through anyway!

Definitely agree with getting back to your GP/HV and demanding answers or at least help.

As am aside, classic Mumsnet bingo - only a matter of time befire someone used the words 'special snowflake'...

Sorry for typos, fingers clumsy after a bad night with my 'manipulative' non sleeping baby

Oh, and come join us on the non sleepers thread if you'd like a safe place that's judgement free and full of sleepless mums awake all hours. Be warned, there is much talk of cake...

Steeley113 Ergh, what a horrible post. What possible good can you be doing to come in in page 6 of this poor woman’s thread and a) give some bullshit, smug homespun wisdom (which clearly won’t fucking work as the OP has tried bloody everything) and then b) say you agree with Camilla who has posted some proper goady stuff.

The OP is at the end of her tether and what she needs is help, advice and support not smug dickheads coming on to tell her that their 4yo sleeps 18 hours a day or that if she just gave the kid some warm milk and a firm word it would all be better.

Honestly sometimes I wonder if a lot of people on this forum is just totally lacking in empathy or human kindness.

Rant over.

Hope the GP is helpful. Update us if you can bare to come back!

I think you sound like a lovely mum. I hope things start to improve. All I can suggest is wearing him out in the day, ensuring he has eaten plenty, had lots of water, minimal screen time during day, cosy room with night light and maybe a fan on? All these things ensure my DDs sleep well.