4yo doesn't sleep and won't sleep for anyone else, on my knees with exhaustion

[Rosegold84]

Just that really.
4.5 year old DS. Doesn't sleep, never has from being a baby really. I am a single parent with no input from his dad since pregnancy, so totally on my own. I can be up anywhere from 10-18 times on a night, I have tried him in his own room, in my bed, leaving him to it, you name it I've done it. Anything less than 10 wake ups is good, anything between 5-10 is excellent but he has never ever slept through and never woken up less than 3 times in one night.
GP not interested and won't prescribe anything to help.
I am utterly beside myself with sleep deprivation, I haven't had a good nights sleep in years. My parents have tried a lot to try and have him to sleep, usually one weekend a month but without fail end up bringing him back in the middle of the night or 6 am as he just won't settle for them and screams all night long. I am so tired. What can I do, mumsnetters? I'm desperate for one night.
Next time my parents attempt it, I may well just turn my phone off and unplug landline and make myself totally uncontactable.....

I work with health visitors ...the advice will all be to do with 'sleep hygiene ' which is all stuff you will no doubt have tried with the main emphasis being on routines, calmly putting back in bed and leaving them on repeat...it is unlikely gp will prescribe medication and sadly there are very few 'sleep clinics ' on the NHS.

OP, I hope you get this sorted out. The camp bed idea is a really good one: you’re allowing your ds to come to you in the night rather than getting him to rely on you coming to him, which is the first step in getting him to help solve the problem. You can say “I’m not coming over to your bed but you can come and sleep here any time you need me.”

When my 3yo ds had trouble staying in bed the other thing I did was make being awake very boring. Another mumsnetter advised me to limit what I said to “it’s night time. Back to bed” and so I did. No stories, no conversations, just kindly and lovingly saying that one phrase in response to ds’s questions and when he cried.

I also think it’s worth going to the GP to see if you can be referred to a sleep clinic.

Best of luck

Where are you? We were given ENT and audiology referrals straight away and that let to sleep investigations alongside ENT stuff.

If you’re still reading OP I’m so sorry about all the smug fuckers saying their kid sleeps 14hrs a night because they’re so great at parenting. That’s not how it works. As I said upthread, my 3.8yr old has never slept well and I mean from the day she was born, stopped napping from a year old and has never been easy to get to bed. But my 18month old slept through virtually from birth, has a good 12hrs sleep a night and has two naps a day still!!

They’ve got the same parents, they’ve had the same routine, they eat the same things, watch the same amount of TV.... it’s just the luck of the draw.

I'd bet the deeds to my house she hasn't ever had to cope with a child who really is physiologically wired not to sleep

you owe me the deeds of your house then.

Hope you get sorted OP . we have all met smug parents like some on here bet their children aren’t perfect sleeping habits can suddenly change for any child.

I am often accused of being smug by people who don't want to take charge and allow their babies/toddlers/children to rule the roost.
I am sorry, but if my four-year-old had me up 10 times a night, the time for gentle persuasion and patience is over
He is leading you a merry dance, sorry.
As I have said many times on MN, I am convinced that a lot of the current wishy-washy 'advice' about bed-sharing, napping on mum, baby cues and baby-led nonsense discourage good sleep habits. And this is the result.
Get a sticker chart and some earplugs OP, and toughen up. You are the adult here, and the sooner your son learns that, the better for you both.

He is leading you a merry dance, sorry.

exactly, my DC never slept through the night until well after this age, but like hell did they involve me in their shenanigans!

Rose, in case you come back, i just wanted to send hugs.
My now 7yr old just isn't wired for sleep (although clearly needs much more than she would choose to have).

She didn't sleep through until the night i was in labour with dd2🙄 at 22 mo & then didn't do it again for another 2 years. She didn't regularly settle herself off to sleep until she started school at 4.5, until then one of us had to sit with her, often in physical contact.

She used to wake regularly in the night, and often was already crying when she woke up. It was so difficult and that was with 2 of us. I can only imagine how difficult it would be on your own.

Like you i used to get so annoyed with the 'rod for your own back' brigade (especially as number 2 is a great sleeper) and crying it out was just never an option for us.

It was only just after her 4th birthday that we found out she had glue ear and probably enlarged adenoids which was probably making lying down uncomfortable. As she grew out of this sleep improved although she still hates sleep and often needs us to sit in with her to help her settle, shes always worse if shes coning down with something.

Anyway, thats my long way of saying; It'll be nothing you did or didn't do. Sone children don't sleep well. Children aren't preprogrammed robots. Some have night terrors, some have physical difficulties. It's worth checking him over with the GP, do push ruling out things such as ears, throat and teeth as an underling issue.
Melatonin may help him settle more easily and develop a better relationship with sleep.
And do what ever you have to do, co sleeping ect. to get the sleep you need.

There are a couple of children's sleep charities that may also be able to offer some free support too.
www.thechildrenssleepcharity.org.uk/
sleepcouncil.org.uk/

OP don't go!
As he's old enough to express himself reasonably well, what does he say about it? If you ask him why he wakes up so upset? And what you could do to help? At this age he is probably the only one who can help you get to the bottom of it.

Cranial osteopath. My eldest was like this. Made a massive difference.

How on earth does a child benefit from being awake all night? What merry damcd do you envisage? Some manipulative little boy haing the time of his life and bouncing on the bed. It’s not manipulative because he has nothing to gain and he is not happy with any outcome! Listen to yourselves! Your so keen o centre your own self-congratulatory post that you’re not even reasoning it out.

OP mine was the same at that age, but starting school really sorted out the disturbed sleep. It may have been coincidence though, perhaps he naturally grew out of it. I didn't have a full night's sleep until he was nearly 4.5. He's 8 now and a really good sleeper. There were multiple wakings during the night, often for up to 2 hours or more, or else he'd wake up for the day at 4am. I tried everything, every suggestion and strategy out there. I also didn't want to leave him to scream himself to sleep. Co sleeping helped but he was still extremely wakeful, although at least it meant i didn't have to get out of bed every time. I'm not a single parent although DH slept through it all usually. You have my sympathy. I also had every one telling me what I was doing wrong, but it's easy enough to say and not so easy when you are the one dealing with it. I hope the GP/HV are helpful and things improve soon.

Camiila - what medical issue did your DC have that prevented them from sleeping properly?

I don’t have any advice for you OP, only sympathy. I do want to say something about the assertion that by going to him every time he cries and not leaving him to it you’ve made this situation or that he’ll beer sleep through.

My DS is nearly two and I’ve never let him CIO and have always gone to him. He’s a good sleeper - last night he slept for 11.5 hours in his own bed. If he wakes up, there’s a reason, occasionally it’s bwcause he wants a cuddle. Most of the time it’s because he’s coughed himself awake/can’t breath through a snotty nose and you know what? That’s fine with me, I’m his mother.

There was a time last year when he was waking up screaming every two hours and it went on for months. My own DM told me to leave him because he was manipulating me - he wasn’t. He’s gluten intolerant and the poor bastard was in constant pain because we kept trying to wean him and feed him stuff he was intolerant to!

This is my long winded way of saying two things

1. I completely get why you won’t leave him, good for you, you’re the best mother he could have
2. fuck off with the assumption that attending to your child in the night makes you a pushover snowflake of a woman raising an insipid spoilt child who won’t sleep.

Huge sympathy, that sounds exhausting. Agree with other posters that sleep apnoea needs checking as it's the most easily fixed (I have a DFriend whose DD had this and was very similar). How's your DD during the day? Any obvious sensory seeking or sensory avoidance behaviour? My DS has sensory processing issues, including heightened vestibular and proprioceptive needs and weighted blanket and compression underwear (leggings and T shirts) help him sleep through the night most nights. Before then, he would be up 3-4 x a night. Another thing which helped him relax about falling asleep us 'The Rabbit who wants to fall asleep' CD. He's a bit older than your DC but he knows to turn that on in the night if he's struggling to fall asleep again - it's read by a hypnotist and it's dope! Another thing I know has helped some parents is a big u shaped body pillow (they sell them for Pg women) so the child curls up in the middle and feels like there is someone next to them all night long. Good luck OP, feeling really sleep deprived is horrid and I can't believe some of the smug, sanctimonious comments you've had on here when you are clearly in need of support.

theanonymum1_ best post of the thread!! You’re not making a rod for your own back by loving your kid and not wanting them to be frightened or in distress. Sometimes my 3yr old just wants a cuddle and I get that, she’s 3 and I’m her Mum!!

Absolutely Anon. Who cares if he is testing you to see if you’ll be there? (He’s not) That’s what unconditional love is.

Camiila - what medical issue did your DC have that prevented them from sleeping properly?

The Op has not mentioned any medical issue, if her child has a medical issue she needs to get it sorted out.

It does not take a medical issue for children not to sleep, mine simply were non sleepers, I have however raised autistic children who have sleep issues, but that is not of any relevance.

the OP needs to get a grip. She is the adult in this situation, she is not behaving like the adult. we are talking about a 4 and a half year old here. If she is so unable to control him already, he'll be beyond feral by the time he is a teen.

He’s 4. Stop pandering to him. This is entirely your own fault.

How is it pandering? He’s crying the whole time! He isn’t appeased by co-sleeping. And yes he’s 4. He’s very little. Jesus we expect more of kids than we do of adults. How would you like it if you were distraught throughout the night and your partner told you shut the fuck up?

Sleeping is not about control. A child does not stop waking themselves up because their mother is in control. The control comes in by setting routines, reacting appropriately to wake ups and, if as the parent you think there’s an underlying issue, pushing for external help. Sometimes there are underlying issues. If I had ignored my instinct and just accepted advice from friends, family and the GP, my DS would still be up all night in pain and still be having toast for breakfast.

Thank you for all the lovely comments, advice and support. I have taken a lot of it onboard. to those of you saying I am entirely at fault for the fact my son seems to be physically incapable of staying asleep and gets distressed in the night - piss off. I am not going to leave him to scream and believe me he was not a baby who would have been left to cio. I don't believe that by tending to him I have done the wrong thing.
I'm ok with early starts. That's what being a parent is. I am on my knees with sleep deprivation though and so is he - I need to get to the bottom of it. I am wondering if sleep apnea should be a route to investigate.

He’s very little. he's not little, he is a school child. He needs structure and boundaries, not a free hand to rule the roost. This behaviour is down to the OP

Camiila I have advance searched you and I think you're just on a wind up.