4yo doesn't sleep and won't sleep for anyone else, on my knees with exhaustion

[Rosegold84]

Just that really.
4.5 year old DS. Doesn't sleep, never has from being a baby really. I am a single parent with no input from his dad since pregnancy, so totally on my own. I can be up anywhere from 10-18 times on a night, I have tried him in his own room, in my bed, leaving him to it, you name it I've done it. Anything less than 10 wake ups is good, anything between 5-10 is excellent but he has never ever slept through and never woken up less than 3 times in one night.
GP not interested and won't prescribe anything to help.
I am utterly beside myself with sleep deprivation, I haven't had a good nights sleep in years. My parents have tried a lot to try and have him to sleep, usually one weekend a month but without fail end up bringing him back in the middle of the night or 6 am as he just won't settle for them and screams all night long. I am so tired. What can I do, mumsnetters? I'm desperate for one night.
Next time my parents attempt it, I may well just turn my phone off and unplug landline and make myself totally uncontactable.....

cod it's nice to know I'm not the only one with a child of this age who doesn't sleep through!

Ignore Camiila. I'd bet the deeds to my house she hasn't ever had to cope with a child who really is physiologically wired not to sleep. DS2 was like this. In his case it was linked to autism. He never slept as a baby. Didn't sleep through until he was about 8 years old. I know exactly how it feels, and how very unhelpful it is to receive advice that just says: do this, job done.
But he is now reaching the age of reason. So you can explain to him: you don't need sleep, I understand that. But i do. If mummy doesn't get sleep she is very grumpy and can't be a good mummy (that was veyr true in my case.)
Discuss with him what he'd like to do. Let him choose:
Sleep with you or own bed?
Nightlight on or off?
White noise on or off?
Put a drink within easy reach and make sure a big and smily cuddly toy is by his pillow to 'look after him' while you are asleep.
When he wakes you, just say: I need sleep now.

I know this is easier said than done and will not work like magic. For us it was a very slow process. But when I was so tired that I became a monster I would tell DS: I am horrible like this when I am too tired. I need sleep. I am a nice mummy if I get a good night's sleep.

As he gets older, encourage him to self-soothe when he wakes at night. Give him loads of praise in the morning for having a drink, or looking at a book or cuddling a toy without waking you. If he needs the loo, get him up, take him, bring him back without saying a word except: I need sleep.

If your child has anxiety issues, ASC, underlying melonin deficiency, then that’s why they didn’t sleep well as a baby and that’s why they continue to struggle. It has nothing to do with your parenting. And do you know what? If it is because, ‘you came running’ then it’s worth it because you’ve got a child who knows you love them unconditionally and you don’t sudenly give less of a crap bout their welfare because it’s night time.

Waking up ten times a night is not normal. What do you do when he wakes up? Sounds like you’ve created a routine so as soon as he makes a sound you go to him - you need to break that cycle somehow. You don’t want to leave him to cry (though that’s the approach that set you off down this road in the first place). Have you tried a sticker chart? Every night he stays quietly in his bed her gets a sticker and after a week he gets a reward? Is that the kind of thing that would motivate him? Your GP obviously doesn’t think there is much wrong with him so it’s down to you. Bedtime routine sounds ok - I second those who say make sure he’s getting lots of physical exercise in the day to tire him out.

Hot, my child knows I love him unconditionally......he also knows, "it's bed time, so it means sleep time".

This is the sole reason we live in a world with offended snowflakes because they've been sheltered their whole entire lives.

I learned independence, I'm now a fully functioning adult who doesn't rely on others to guide me through life.

I intend to raise my child the same.

No ones parenting is wrong, unless they physically and mentally abuse the child however, they can't then sit there and say "oh my kid won't sleep now because I cuddled him every time he woke up".

Rightly or wrongly, that's my opinion.

Seriously, back to GP. And stop feeling responsible for being kind. All of these people with sound sleepers are nothing but lucky.

My DS isn't a sound sleeper!

You can't run to the doctor to undo what you've made routine simply because you are now struggling with life.

That’s fine. But it’s based on your child’s ability to regulate their own behaviour and feelings. I’ve read nothing that suggests that’s typical of OPs DS’s night time behaviour.

Head that want a reply to you

I really feel for you op, it sounds horrendous. Can you co sleep for a period of time and then transition to his room? Also maybe making his bed an exciting place to be could help. Ikea do a lovely mid sleeper called a kura bed which isn't too pricey. I know funds are tight but you might be able to get the bed second hand. My ds got up every night for over a year when he was two. I eventually worked out that he found his mattress uncomfortable. A new mattress has made an amazing difference. I hope that your ds sleeps better for you soon

It's clear we have a difference in opinion.

It's best I leave my opinion and walk away as this isn't helping anyone.

So many parents go to their children when they wake at night and they go on to be good sleepers. OP isn’t responsible for this! There’s something underlying that needs attention and no amount of flimsy anecdotes to the contrary will change that.

Why are your parents bringing him back? Sorry I know thats not about a long term solution but you sound very tired and really could they not just stay awake all night with him the odd time to just give you a bit of a break?

Ok I think I'm going to step away from this thread and mumsnet.
I wanted help and support.not to be told it's all my fault by smug parents of babies (ha), I'm going to have an out of control teenager, and that I'm raising a snowflake.
Thanks everyone who contributed positively. I will take him back to the GP and speak to my HV There's been some good suggestions on here I'm really going to take on board. X for you all x

Well adjusted 4 year olds don’t generally scream through the night, but many of you are acting as if they don’t do that because they’re aware of the boundaries of because they know they shouldn’t.

That’s not the case. No child - no matter what upbringing - wants to be awake screaming unless there is something significantly wrong.

My daughter was a nightmare due to being ‘scared’, I feel your pain. Why not start from where you are- he’s in with you, and try and improve on that. I can only give examples of what I did, as I’m no expert, but this is what worked for me, it might work for others too.

I did sticker chart concentrating on bedtime- sticker for getting ready quickly, another for staying in bed etc. We have a rule- a get out of bed/call for cuddle 3 times max for sticker, then reduced that once she’d acheived it.

I also said she could come and see me for a cuddle if necessary during the night, but try not to wake me up, because I’d be tired/grumpy. So, no calling out etc once the lights were out (I left a nightlight on so she could get to my room ok). Also I got fed up of her in my bed so said she could bring her pillow and duvet and sleep on the floor, but not in my bed. That was I wasnt leaving her alone and scared, but still making my room less attractive. She stopped coming to sleep in my room of her own accord after a few weeks.

Awww this sounds awful Op... you must be exhausted!
My toddler was the worst sleeper as he only slept in tranches of 2 hours .. it was horrendous! My husband and I used to have to go up and settle him on average of 8 times a night ! I was exhausted and on the brink of depression! He's a lot better now and has bad nights but not as bad as yours. I am thinking that there might underlying issues with him but as he's still a toddler it's too early to diagnose.
My only advise to you is to go back to your gp and be a bit more pushy. Keep a daily diary for a week and present it to him/her.
to you .... I don't know how you're functioning. Ignore the smug parents on here, ignorance sometimes causes you to make insensitive comments.

Wow some interesting ‘help’ on here! I feel for you OP . My DD (3.5) is nothing like on your level but she still wakes regularly in the night and that kills me sometimes. And that’s nothing like as many times as you’re getting up. Be insistent on help from the GP. Is he at school? He’ll need a settled routine for that. Hope you get some answers and improvements soon.

You must be exhausted @Rosegold84 and it sounds like you’ve tried loads of things to help already. While routine and associations are important in sleep, given how chronic your sons difficulties are I would be pursuing the GP again. I think ruling out (or in) medical causes such as enlarged adenoids and sleep apnea seems really important . You could ask for a referral to ENT. My DS1 had sleep apnea. He wasn’t a loud snorer but had frequent wakenings and was often unhappy about it as he didn’t want to be awake! Luckily he grew out of it around 2.5 as his was considered mild.
I hope you get some answers and help.
Good luck

Op it’s not your fault! Don’t let the couple of judgy posters put you off coming on here for some support! You cannot give a child too much love or attention! He needs you. You are being a fab mum. I like the sound of a camp bed in your room (may be a good start)

I will say again though It’s not anything you’ve done! Plenty of parents go to every cry and don’t do CIO and they sleep fine. He just may be sensitive and grow out of it. Keep going op! Get help from the doctors and hv. Speak to your parents about having him for a weekend so you can recharge x x

OP, you've had some shockingly smug and unhelpful answers on here - don't walk away. I've experienced terrible sleep in my DC (though not your number of wake-ups), and in both initially it was thought to have no underlying cause, and then both turned out to have different physical health reasons.

I would highly recommend ruling out apnea - I may have missed a post from you, but is there definitely no snoring/gasping going on at night?

I'd push for more sympathetic and helpful medical ruling out, as it sounds like way beyond normal attention seeking.

Also might be worth looking up retained Moro reflex, see if it rings any bells.

If you don't get anywhere with the medical side of things, I highly recommend Millpond sleep clinic, if you can stretch to it. They do it all over the phone, won't take a cry it out approach with you, and it helps you get your head in gear. It helped with my child's sleep kindly and gently, even though that DC turned out to have an underlying medical reason.

Take good care of yourself. You are a good and kind mum - you've not made a rod for your own back, there's something else going on here. Xx

Both my DC have had to have tonsils and adenoids out. The enlarged tonsils caused snoring then sleep apnoea. Neither of them were ever ill with it, it was just the poor sleeping which indicated the problem. Definitely worth checking.

Hope you get it sorted. Sleep deprivation is soul destroying.

Camp bed great idea. Reassuring for mum and son. Increase confidence and assertiveness in Mum. Reassure son Mum knows what she's doing.Both feel safe. 💙🌷

@Rosegold84 just in case you are still reading, responding to your sons needs, to the detriment of your own, makes you an awesome mum.
I'm sure you know that this level of disturbance isn't typical in a 4 year old. I don't know if any if the below will help, but they are things we have done with my oldest who, whilst nowhere on the scales compared you what you are experiencing, would easily be labelled a bad sleeper!
From age about 3, we told him that Mummy and Daddy needed sleep to help us be nice parents. Occasionally we dropped out of things because we were so shattered after a bad night (our version of a bad night would be your good night. Sorry), and explain why we weren't fit to drive etc.
We would help with drinks and toilets, but other than a physical presence, not do anything else in the night. The camp bed suggested up thread might be worth trying.
We did (and still do, 8 years down the line) start our day very early. He is allowed to read from 5, and go make breakfast at 6am. From aged 5 I used to let him go downstairs when the clock changed colour, eat the cereal and fruit left out and switch on the tv. This gave me a "lie in" til 7 or so.
I think I would make a diary of night wakes, with reasons where you know them (drink, nightmare, screaming , unknown etc) and any response from you (offered water, co-slept). With a few days of this, is go see the HV. It dounds like youve tried the typical suggestions, and it's made no difference. Sounds like there might be something more at play here, and expert help is required.
Good luck, and wishing you both many sleep filled nights. I still remember the joy of getting a week where I got 4 straight hours every night. Sounds like that's just a fantasy for you atm, but I hope it becomes reality for you very soon. In the mean time, much and to see you through.

I don't normally comment on these threads but just wanted to show support to you OP. I'm a lone parent of a child the same age and I know how hard it is. Can't believe some of the smug comments I've read on here.