4yo doesn't sleep and won't sleep for anyone else, on my knees with exhaustion

[Rosegold84]

Just that really.
4.5 year old DS. Doesn't sleep, never has from being a baby really. I am a single parent with no input from his dad since pregnancy, so totally on my own. I can be up anywhere from 10-18 times on a night, I have tried him in his own room, in my bed, leaving him to it, you name it I've done it. Anything less than 10 wake ups is good, anything between 5-10 is excellent but he has never ever slept through and never woken up less than 3 times in one night.
GP not interested and won't prescribe anything to help.
I am utterly beside myself with sleep deprivation, I haven't had a good nights sleep in years. My parents have tried a lot to try and have him to sleep, usually one weekend a month but without fail end up bringing him back in the middle of the night or 6 am as he just won't settle for them and screams all night long. I am so tired. What can I do, mumsnetters? I'm desperate for one night.
Next time my parents attempt it, I may well just turn my phone off and unplug landline and make myself totally uncontactable.....

Yeah try that. Watch your kid trying not to scream for fear of upsetting you and then watch the fall out when he can’t regulate his own feelings years later. You don’t scare kids into feeling the way you want them to. He’s looking for reassurance. It doesn’t matter how old he is.

I shall just tell him not to scream in the night and to leave me alone. Obviously that will be the solution to a child of nearly 5 not sleeping. Why ever did I not think of that before......

hot I hope you don't think I would actually leave him to scream himself out in the night :(
I'm so desperate to fix this for him - he must be suffering as much as me

Hi, what time is he going to bed at and what is his bedtime routine at the moment?

Does he have any difficulties in daylight hours OP?

Nap funds are tight and I'm not really sure how he'd respond to a stranger, given that he won't even sleep for my mum who he has a fantastic bond with. I work PT but on my days off we go outside, spend time in the garden. TV is limited to 30 mins on a morning whilst I get ready, maybe a DVD in the afternoon on a weekend if it's bad weather. Nothing after 5 pm regardless.

No sorry. I was replying to camilla

Hot no he seems to be a happy child during the day. Nursery have noted no problems with him, he did drop his daytime nap v early though - before 2, think he was about 18 months.

I’m trying to offset these posts that insist you should shut kids up if their feelings are an inconvenience to you. It just trains kids to internalise shame about how they feel.

Bedtime routine is as follows:
Bath time at 6.30. Usually takes around 20-30 mins. We get dried, he has a drink of milk in pj's in bed with a story. Porridge if he's hungry.
In bed asleep by 7.30-8 pm most nights however sometimes fights it and stays awake until nearer 9. It's the getting him to stay asleep that's the issue

i dont know why people are telling u to just let him cry it out. clearly he isn't doing it for the fun of it!
go to your gp and ask for a referral to paeds and ask them to refer to sleep disorder clinic but be prepared for a wait. keep a sleep diary and if u have a fitbit or similar track your sleep or his and get that on record.
I have twins with a sleep disorder and spent hours on wed in a sleep clinic with a brilliant dr.

My DD did too. She’s very highly strung and has never yet slept through at 5. She’s woken frequently with apnea because she has adenoid problems so it might help to rule that out.

hot I can't in good conscience leave him to scream. It goes against every instinct I have as a mother. I've had people tell me it's my own fault, I've made a rod for my own back but there's a problem and I need to fix it not tell him to go away and scare him into shutting up.

I didn't know sleep disorders were a thing. As for tonsils, he's very rarely poorly. Can't remember last time he was properly poorly, in fact.
Could be worth checking though

Fitbit type device is a brilliant idea. If nothing else as a helpful tracker for when you get to see someone about it.

I wonder if he would fall for a placebo effect if you tell him its a magic sleep bracelet or something, which may help him to feel more settled through the night (not saying it will make him sleep through of course).

Definitely not normal for a 4.5 yr old.

My DD used to fight sleep and get up in the night a LOT until I'd reached the end of any/all patience I had and just left her. If she got up I told her to get back to bed and ignored her if she tried talking/crying.

I know this won't help though, as you've said that. I'm sure someone will have better advice but you could just try being a bit more firm with him and shutting your door?

Have you tried making him more tired?

Are there are forest schools nearby where he could attend? A full day outside being active in the cold will be tiring. Swimming? Not lessons but 1-2 hours of playing in the water. Can he cycle? Balance bike? A trip around a park in the late afternoon may help.

You need to maximise his time outside in the daylight and be indoors as little as possible.

What's your bedtime routine? Have you tried yoga in a dark room (LED candles - red spectrum)? Meditation CD for children in bed? Blackout blind? Essentials oils to aid sleep? Audio CD to listen to while trying to fall asleep?

I find the combination of exercise in daylight and a very 'dark' bedtime room improves sleep. No cure though.

Sleep deprivation is torture. I would pursue the GP and HV for melatonin. Keep a diary. Video on your phone.

Rosegold

Not ideal but you can disturb his pattern?

When he is in a deep sleep phase waken him up yourself - ten mins before you go to bed maybe?

He will not be ready to waken and although he might try to it is likely he will go back off after ten mins or so

Or

You say he is in with you - have his water ready by the bed, a book and a dim light - if he wants to get up allow him to read?

Also, I'm surprised your GP hasn't done anything about it or referred you somewhere. Maybe try going back again and demanding a second opinion, sleep deprivation is completely brutal and can be fatal tbh!

You’re being a responsive parent. It’s not instinctive to leave a child to cry and clearly he needs you.

You haven’t created this problem. It wouldn’t have gone away by ignoring him. You might have scared him into shutting up but I’d rather have a kid who can express their feelings than one who’s scared to let you know how they feel.

Rose, my point exactly. My DS is much younger than yours and now sleeps well.

If I didn't do CIO, I feared I'd have a child much like yours keeping me up through the night and pushing me to suicide from lack of sleep.

Sadly you either continue this until he moves out in 16 years or you apply some tough love.

My neighbours can hear my DS when he cries but it's a case of tough luck.

You can't always assume there is ALWAYS an underlying issue either.

Your child has cried and you've gone running. It's a case of "made a rod for your own back".

If every time I made a specific noise when I was hungry, someone brought me food, I'd have learnt very quickly.

Compared to other Mammals, we mollycoddle our offspring far too much.

Thanks for the input Head
I wouldn't be too smug though - 1 is still very young and things change.

Um you probably don't want to hear this but my 4 year old sleeps well for first 4-5hours then wakes and won't settle and I go and co-sleep with him at the point. Time he is settling himself, sleeping alone is gradually increasing. He's never been a good sleeper and this way we both get sleep

I've a child who laughs when I discipline him, who bites and who will only listen to men. Trust me, it's not all roses and rainbows for me.

I'm in no way smug, I just knew that going to him every time he cried at night, meant he'd keep trying it.

He proved it when my Dsis had him and pandered to him.