2yr old drinking 40oz of milk and still not sleeping

[Rainbowsockstoday]

No having a go anyone because I'm well aware I have made this problem myself and don't need to feel any worse whilst sleep deprived!

My 2yo lb is a sleep thief. We might have one night in a month where he sleeps 9-4.30 if we are lucky and the rest of the time he's up for hours. We have a good solid routine that gets him down to sleep fine and works 90% of the time without a problem:

Dinner
Quiet play
Pyjamas on
Stories
Bottle
Sleep by 7.30-8

But then he wakes up at 12/1am and is up for 3 or 4 hours crying for more milk and needing everyone up to see them. He's having maybe 40oz a night milk sometimes and still screaming for more. We've tried stopping it and telling him there's none left or it's all gone (he must think I'm awful at shopping to keep running out) but he just screams more till he's sick and breathless. I guess for an easy life I've let it get this bad by giving in. I just don't know what to do to get some sleep!

DH and I both work and his job involves a lot of distance driving and safety stuff so he really needs his sleep. I'm a teacher so work much shorter hours. It's usually fine as I'm always the one he wants and will only accept me coming to him. This last couple of nights though he's wanted daddy and that's made it worse for us both because it causes tension and arguments and I fee rotten dh is getting sleepless nights too.

He still has an hour nap in the day 11-12 and my MIL suggested this morning that maybe it's a sign he doesn't need that day sleep anymore and we should cut it out or at least down. The problem is though if we don't give him that sleep he's nodding off at 3/4pm and any amount he gets then means he's not ready to go to bed at night till 11/12pm and I'm not sure that's a suitable bedtime for a toddler. I do my level best to take him out afternoons to the park, softplay, swimming, gym class, anything to tire him out in the hope that he sleeps better but it's not working.

We need a solution or some advice. We are not willing to CIO/CC because mainly I think it's cruel and heartbreaking but also my DS is 2 and so will come out of his bedroom and bring the screaming to us if we don't go to him! I'm tempted to take all the bottles away and say no milk at all!

Again though please don't make me fee any worse.

Oh and my DS ate barely anything when he was having milk at night. As soon as the milk stopped, he started eating really well.

My DS used to drink a lot of milk during the day at that day and would hardly eat. He ended up anaemia. I cut back slowly and now he eats most foods.
He needs to be eating enough during the day, if he isn't then that's why he is not sleeping.

What do you mean by "he sometimes eats in the day"? He NEEDS to be eating.

My DS is the same age and this is his routine:

Wake up 7am
Glass of milk (4oz) and breakfast - usually cereal or porridge
Snack around 10am - cheese, crackers and grapes
Lunch at 11.30 - sandwich, veg sticks, fruit or beans on toast/jacket potato
Nap 12-2
Snack at 2.30 - crumpet or a biscuit with fruit
Dinner at 4.30 - chilli and rice or fish fingers with potatoes and veg
Snack at 6 - fruit or cheese with crackers or an oat bar
Bedtime milk (4oz) - 7
Asleep by 7.30

Food above as an example, he doesn't have this every day

He has access to water all day. He never wakes in the night for milk or water. He did about a year ago and we introduced the pre-bedtime snack and that stopped the request for milk in the early hours.

Those of you suggesting a baby gate on the bedroom door we used to do that as our stairs are a bit funny at the top and it was the safer option. However he was climbing over it by 15mths so now we don't have them on we just closed the doors on a night. Now however he's tall enough to reach the door handles and open them himself (he's safe going up and downstairs but for some reason never tries at night. The same with the cot. He could climb out by a year old and I still go cold when I remember the night I checked in on him chattering and saw him stood on the end of his cot balancing!

I'm a bit upset by the suggestion his behaviour is atrocious because during the day he's a little angel and says please, thank you, follows all instructions 1st time without question and is a dream. It's the fact he doesn't want to be in bed. If I took him downstairs to play he'd be happy as Larry or if input the light on and read stories for hours he'd be happy. The fact is even nights when we have kept him in bed he will lie still and listen to stories once he's calmed down but we are reading for hours because he likes the story. I'm tempted to read him textbooks but he'd find that interesting too probably.

His diet is:

Toast and cereal and watered down fruit juice
Snack mid morning before nap (usually some crackers or a yoghurt)
Nap
Lunch of sandwiches, crisps, apple/orange
Snack usually a banana
Dinner can be anything we are having but we all eat together
Bedtime routine starts after quiet play (this is our time to clear the table after dinner and get ready to go upstairs)

The bedtime routine starts at about 6-6.30 and we aim for bedtime at 7 but it can be anywhere between 7 and 9 depending on his mood. Usually I leave him at 7.30 though because he's sound asleep. The routine is exactly the same every night including the same story to end it. We can't give him a bath because we don't have a bath and a shower tends to wake him up.

"he sometimes eats in the day but then that gives him loads more energy and he's in bed much later and, whilst sleeps better, he does 11-3/4 and that's him up and about for the day."

Umm, he needs to be eating in the day at 2, you're surely not saying that youd rather he didnt eat because it makes him tired and easier to manage?!

@stormtreader I'm saying sometimes when he eats loads for his dinner he isn't ready for bed at 7 or even 8 because he's running around and even refuses milk because he doesn't want to go to bed.

The reason I say he sometimes eats well is because sometimes he's really picky and only grazes his meals all day and other times he eats well. If he's ever ill or ever eats something he doesn't like then he stops eating entirely and even refuses milk. He simple won't have anything.

Of course he is ok if you bring him down- this is what he wants and you are giving it to him!

He needs to learn that night time if for sleeping in bed, and he needs you to help him learn this.

Trust me, I've been there. With DD1 I let her rule the roost as it was just us and I found it easier, but I eventually realised I had dine her no favours as she just didn't know how to go to bed and just sleep without needing endless reassurances from me in the form of milk,more cuddles, another story etc .

Simply I got tough and stopped all of it- she was furious with me and the first night she screamed for hourd- I felt like the worst parent in the world.

The second night she went to sleep after 2 hours and slept through. Same again night 3, night 4 she was asleep in under 20 mins. After that she started asking to go to bed.

It will be hard but he needs to be able to do this, and you need to sleep properly too.

DD used to wake 3 or 4 times a night for a bottle until we cut out bottles altogether at 15 months. I think she was used to being fed to sleep and when she woke up that was all she knew how to do in order to get back to sleep. I don't think it had anything to do with calories, she was eating well during the day. We tried water in her bottle and it didn't work. We had a few weeks of unsettled sleep with lots of patting her until she fell asleep but she slept a LOT more at night after that.

Could you try increasing amount of good quality protein (meat/fish/egg) he eats during the day to increase satiety? ... the caveat there is that it can make them constipated, so you'll need to keep an eye on other food group intake + water to make sure his gut is ok, since sleep will suffer further with any discomfort.

I second a PP's suggestion re, cycling bedtime - our DS did not sleep in daycare (2days a week), so on those days it was: in from daycare, nice warm wash (bath or shower (dim bathroom lights helped!), bowl of oat porridge, in bed w lights out by 6pm.

On non-daycare days, we gradually moved his day nap to a bit later and b/c he was a bit more tired he'd sleep 2-2.5 hrs. although this sounds very counter-intuitive, it actually sorted our other nights. We stuck to bedtime at 8pm but no games/ no screen after 6pm (tidy up time for toys before dinner and no toys until next day except for the cuddly ones in bed), clearing the table became something we did after he was in bed and at the worst point we even stopped reading temporarily as that got DS excited, so just a couple of calming lullabies, "ssshh everyone had gone to bed now" with lights off and a kiss goodnight (and a new sleeping bag which was a bit more difficult to get out of), that sort of thing.

Having said all that, just re-reading your posts - it honestly sounds like combination of not enough calories during day + habit of nightly calories via milk. Sorry, a bit blunt there, but good luck with whatever methods you'll end up tackling the problem!!!

He's leant a lot of bad habits. You know that.

2 pints of milk from a bottle will also start affecting his teeth at some point.

You have to decide to make changes. And help him learn about sleeping. Because if it doesn't it'll all stay the same. You don't want to be having all this when he's 2 1/2 or 3 or 4. Because it'll probably be louder and more difficult. Or have pushed you and your DH to despair.

What loveandbiscuits said. You can do it. Probably won't be pretty initially.

Oh and if he grazes all day, cut out (some of) the snacks - he may not be getting a chance to get hungry enough between food intake times to eat a proper meal. Some kids just don't need as many snacks as we seem to think these days. The behaviours that encourage us to give them a snack could actually be a sign of thirst/boredom rather than actual hunger.

It's hard, isn't it? I gave up trying to get my DC to stay in their own bed. Tried cC & CIO,PUPD - the lot! It only ever worked on the short term & apparently there is evidence that none of these methods are effective in the long term.

One of my colleagues gave me the best advice. She said "don't think about it, they're just up at night. Just get as much sleep as you can".

For me., that meant bringing DS in to our bed (I finally gave up all these methods as 2 yrs old). He had water in a bottle & sucked it for comfort. We all got some sleep.

God he's really got you on a tight leash hasn't he? Why are you reading to him for hours?! Make a pile of books, tell him he can choose 2, end of subject.
You're not being kind or even a great parent just by doing everything he wants or tells you to do. You've created a human being and it's your job to give that human being all the necessary skills to get through life, one of the most important being teaching him how to sleep, you're not doing that presently are you? You're pandering to his every whim and it's still not working is it? This child can only become a good sleeper through the actions you teach him, poor sleep has a knock on effect for years, on his mood, his learning ability etc etc in short, you're letting him down by not teaching him a very important, very necessary, life skill because you don't like the thought of implementing changes or hearing him cry.

There's a few people telling me to teach him to sleep. But I was always told that sleep is something that naturally develops and comes in time.

I said IF we read to him it would be for hours because even when we don't read or speak or even move he will eventually just tell himself a story and is chatting away for hours. He simply isn't tired. We give him milk in the hope that will make him sleepy but he finishes it and then chats again. He's simply awake and whether we are there for him or not it's the same. He's been like it since newborn. Born awake and stayed awake!

I put in my original post I didn't want the aggro because I know it's a situation we have made by being too soft I just need gentle advice to help us. It's probably genetics at play too as I can't get to sleep without having either the TV on (o fall asleep a lot on the sofa) or music on because the silence makes me think. I've never slept well.

I should add that a year ago out gp gave him a sedative medicine to help us but all it seems to do is make him dizzy and that's scary for him.

Before anyone says it I don't want to have to give him the medication his dr prescribed because I don't like him being dizzy and scared. I need to help him sleep without him being upset or sick or screaming for hours. Surely crying himself to sleep is cruel.

If he likes music, have it on. DD1 sleeps with thunderstorms playing on her ipad dock, DD2 has Swan Lake on repeat.Neither of them sleep when it is silent.

@whatthefreak I thought of doing that but was scared to say anything because I thought everyone would jump on me for that. I know I sleep better with music on but that's probably a bad habit.

Well he screams until he is sick if you dont give him what he wants as he knows it works.

He knows his behaviour has to be that extreme for you to give in and that's why he does it.

Had you nipped it in the bud he would have known it doesnt work and not escalated it to this.

He's 2. You're bigger than him and you're in control. Doesn't sound like you're getting any sleep now anyway with him screaming the house down so do as others say just put him back in bed and keep doing it. Eventually he'll get the message.

But if at any point you give in to him you will again show him how extreme his behaviour has to be to get you to crack.

I don't see why it's a bad habit. the ipod emits no light or anything and the music is relaxing. it also masks other noise so they aren't disturbed by noises from in the house or parties in people's gardens etc. When we go away,we just paid know the ipod dock. it's really not big deal. DD2 sleeps 11/12 hours every night, but without music she hears us, loo flushing etc and it wakes her. Give it a go!

just pack the ipod dock! sorry, on phone on the train!

Needing background noise to sleep is fairly normal. DD has to have her fan on for the white noise.

@freeniki the point is when he's sick how do I not respond to that. Because when he is sick all he wants is a cuddle and then goes to sleep once he's clean and dry. He doesn't get what he wants from it.

He's been like this his whole life so I don't know where I would have "nipped it in the bud" as he has times where he's fine and suddenly now he's gone back to being awful.

I guess it was a mistake asking because now I feel like a shitty parent.

I honestly think you're going to have to either be tough and go through s few days of hell (nights!) or shrug and accept lack of sleep.

Good god, he's playing you like a banjo.

You can get extra tall stargates for dogs, btw. You can't let a 2 year old wander around. If all else fails put a bolt on the outside of the door. You'll still have to go in to him as he's a screamer, but he needs to stop thinking of the rest of the house as a place he can go, so he needs to be halted in his tracks.

You need some very loud white noise too. Loud enough to drown out his own chattering. There are apps you can use, plug in your phone and let it go from his wake up with a darkened screen.

Water down the milk a bit. Forget what the HV said, nobody ever died of watered down milk, FFS. Aim for watering down by an ounce a week. In a couple of months it may be just water and then you can tackle the (vast) quantity of it.

Don't change his clothes or bedding - kids can sleep in dribbled on clothes/mattress and he'll soon stop doing it. Put down a waterproof mattress protector.

With respect, not wanting aggro is incompatible with life with a 2 year old.

I would give milk as a drink in the day time too not watered down juice. Especially in the morning and porridge or something warm and milky just before bed