the no-cry sleep solution

[iris66]

has anyone tried it? (book by Elizabeth Pantley) I'm on day 2 & looking for a bit of support as I know it's going to take time. I'm dying through sleep depravation with 8mth DS who bfs to sleep but is very very tricky to move so have been cosleeping whilst he fidgets & kicks all night(and power naps during the day)
Think this is the last chance saloon before ear plugs & leaving him to get hysterical (even though I know that won't happen - i just couldn't, he really does do the whole temper, then sad then hysteria/shaking/terror/I've been abandoned thing - even if DH goes to him - such a mummy's boy)
Anyway, please post if you've been successful with this [hopeful emoticon]

[mez656]

I'd like to gatecrash too if I may.

My dd is 8.5 months and a boob addict. She wakes up every 1.5-2 hours at night and DEMANDS to be bf. We're co-sleeping, which I like, but I wonder if I will need to give that up in order to get her to sleep more. Any co-sleepers out there who manage to sleep through the night?

I've tried to gentle removal thing and it doesn't do much. It does mean that I can get my boob out of her mouth a bit earlier but it hasn't helped in terms of her not demanding it.

I've tried going by a strict bedtime routine but she is not consistent in terms of when she is tired enough to sleep so half the time I do the routine and she's not ready for sleep. The other half, we are out and she's exhausted by the time we get home and wants to sleep immediately (aka change her nappy and plug in the boob). Or, the best is when she falls asleep at 7pm but then wakes up an hour later because she has to poo and then is up until 10pm+

Oh, and, I too have tried dummies to no avail. Sometimes she plays with them during the day though by biting them or banging them on things. Sigh.

Sleeping through the night seems a very long off goal. I would be thrilled with 3-4 hour stretches (which have happed on occassion at which point I wake up and frantically check to make sure she is breathing!).

I don't want to resort to controlled crying but in moments of exhaustion (and peer pressure) I start to wonder...

[danceswithbaby]

Mez656 - I can't believe you posted at 4.05am!! We were awake but at least I was in bed living in hope of 1 more hours kip... Like you, I consider a 3 hour stretch of sleep a good night. Controlled crying crosses my mind but I know I'd never do it to her.
Nearlythree, you're right, she has got used to relying on me to help her get back to sleep, but I don't know how to change that. She seems to want to be asleep as much as I want her to be. I don't mind too much getting her back down, it's not usually too hard, I just wish she'd stay asleep a bit (ok, a lot) longer.
Wrigglejiggle - Does your dd then sleep fine in your bed?

[BikeBug]

gosh, this is getting busy isn't it? So many sleepless babies . Mez and danceswithbaby, sorry to hear you were both up in the middle of the night. We had some more resisting of bedtime again last night, he held out from 7 to 10 pm, but then a surprisingly good nights sleep. Ds woke at 11.30 and went back down with a back rub, then woke at about 4 ish to feed and slept until 8 am! He's been napping for almomst an hour now, but without the benefit of any routine, just fell asleep on dh and is now kipping on the sofa. Here's hoping the jinx of the boast-post doesn't get me for this

[sweetkitty]

hi all welcome to more newbies wow in some way it's reassuring to know we are not the only ones facing this problem. My DD2 is a total boob addict too, last night was horrendous I was practically in tears with exhaustion. DD2 fed at 7.30pm as usual and fell asleep, I put her up to bed and she woke 10 minutes later, went up fed her again and she latched off rolled over to go to sleep then about 30 seconds later got back up and started playing and rolling about her cot (we have a bedside cot she starts the night in there then we cosleep). She went back down at 10.30pm and woke again before midnight got her back off to sleep, fell asleep for 10 minutes and she was awake again, I was so tired at this point. I think we had another 3-4 feeds in the night (I cannot remember).

It's horrible you know she's exhausted but she just won't go to sleep without the boob. Am ordering Pantleys book today.

[iris66]

Hi all - there must be an easier way I guess this is what you get for trying to be kind (they say the right/best way's not always the easiest though)
Just had two nights of horrendousness & DS looks like he's part of the Adams Family his eyes are so black How is it they can go for so long without proper sleep?? I can't !!!! - and I so can't anymore - this is really getting me down.
I've come to the conclusion that the Pantley pull-off is pants unless the LO is very young. DS now clamps down in a four fang nipple piercing chomp as soon as he feels a finger anywhere near his cheek, never mind his mouth! I'm now going right off this method so any tales of success would be gratefully received. (slumps over the keyboard feeling rather tearful at the prospect of more of the same or, next stop, controlled crying )

[Papillon]

Oh (((Iris)))) this is not good

was thinking of you today and just getting around to posting as the kids are in bed.

You mentioned that your dh is away abit - any possibility you could take your ds in to your bed for awhile to try and work on sleep that way??

[Papillon]

Things I have done that seemed to have helped and worked are:

Sing the same song at night so that they know it. Make sure it has the words "sleep" in it!!

Iris I try and connect with ds energetically and that has worked, with abit of reiki.

Rhythmic patting of the back or stomach as they are lying there. I use headphones and listen to ambient tunes which seem to have a nice soothing beat.

I repeat "Go to sleep" every now and then.

I do respond quickly if sleeping iwth the baby with a Shhhh if they rouse to remind them to sleep. If they continue, I shhh again and if it continues then try other methods.

Meanwhile, ds has a cold and have moved dh to sleep with dd and ds sleeps with me. I have had much better sleep actually and am rather liking having my little mannikin next to me again. poor dh!!

[iris66]

Papillon - He was in with us last night from 10 (after going down at 7.15 then awake at 7.45, 845 & 9.30 but was tossing & turning all night so we didn't get much sleep. He decided it was playtime again at 4 so Dh took him downstairs (he then slept 4 -5 9.15-10 then 2.30-3.15) I'm just about to feed & put him down now.
DH is working late all week then away for 5 days from Fri(am going to be on my knees ). I'm starting to wonder if cranial osteopathy may be worth a try to see if there's something that I'm missing
Thanks for your support by the way - it's much appreciated ((hug))

[iris66]

back in a while - good tips

[Papillon]

we are being sychronous Iris with the time then and I had forgotten was going to mention cranial work too!!

I had it done on ds when he was first born, the midwife recommend b/c of rough birth and I could see when massaging him that he was not right.

It helped him get comfortable and he slept better

[iris66]

Blimey - to the second!!

We have a good routine I think. Bath, bf ,say goodnight/kiss everyone& tell them it's bedtime & time to go to sleep, switch music on, book (lots of bedtime/time to go to sleep references), bf (have tried dropping/shifting the last bf - which is purely a comfort thing but it doesn't work)

He goes down so easily (as you can see) but is just getting progessively worse at staying there. It really is purely that he just can't resettle for some reason unless he's attached to me. He is so very tired too (despite being an absolute joy during the day) it can't be good for his health.

I need to get some rest myslf so am going for a relaxing bath then to bed.

[Difers]

Iris, My friend had her baby visit an osteopath when she was a few months old and was excessively crying and it did stop the crying. It can't hurt to try can it?

Is anyone else doing sleep nap /logs and technique as suggested in the book?

What days are people on? I am on day 6.

Elizabeth Pantleys e-mail is in the back of the book. Maybe we could email about the Pantley Pull off technique? I haven't as yet but will if I run in trouble after the magical 10 days!!!

I do find the book very nourishing!

[nearlythree]

As I said before, I love this book, but with my boob addict in the end we did have to have tears and IME (I've done this twice with both dds, one bf and one ffed) there has to be some crying (think even William Sears admits this in one of his books). The great thing about Pantley is that she is wonderful on getting set up with routines etc, but in the end I found the Baby Whisperer's pu/pd better. But it was hard as dd2 was in our room until she was nearly two, and I gave up in the end as she coudl smell my milk. Finally got my two sleeping through when they were both two by doing gradual withdrawl and rapid return - liked both methods as even though there were tears (I had to cold turkey the bf in the end ) I never had to leave them to cry. Wish I'd known about pu/pd with dd1 and had stuck to it with dd2 though.

[WriggleJiggle]

Morning all. Baby in own tonight for first time! As usual, went to sleep fantastically at 8pm (bath, cuddly feed, down in cot with mobile music). Woke for feeding at 2am, fell asleep in my arms, put in cot, woke and cried, fed again, and now its 2.25am she is back in cot with mobile music and hasn't murmured. Didn't want to use mobile music during the night, but it has worked and I need my sleep.

[iris66]

WAHAY!!! such a better night last night (even though DS didn't sleep in his cot after 11)

He went down at 7.45 then not a peep until 11. bf then back in his cot for 15 minutes then bf up down for 30 mins then in with me asleep until 4. bf on & off & dozing until 7.45!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He looks so much happier this morning

Wrigglejiggle - i used a mobile every time with DD but haven't with DS (never like the tune - it's a Mamas & Papas one - what a daft reason eh!!) i like the idea of PUPD but he's been getting too hysterical. I may very well try it at at some point. I'm inclined to agree that there are going to be some tears changing such firm sleep associations.

How did everyone elses weekends go? (day 13 for me)

[danceswithbaby]

Iris, what a poo weekend. Your ds sounds like my dd only worse! I've dusted off Pantley and decided to give it another go before she gets there. I wouldn't worry about the pull-off thing - it sort of works with my dd but it doesn't affect the length of her sleep or stop her demanding boob when she does wake. The priority here is keeping them asleep longer, not getting them there in the first place. I think 'getting to sleep without mummy' can come later. It sounds like your ds is chronically overtired all of the time. The few occasions my dd does get a decent sleep she's so much more content and less fussy. I've decided to tackle naps. I think she takes too many and not long enough. It doesn't sound like yours takes many at all. I'm going to let her nap on my lap and when her little beadies pop open at 30 mins 59 seconds I'll be right there with booby, ready to pounce. My other plan this week is to fill her belly and wear her out! She's started crawling, so it's baby gyms & swimming all week.

[momomama]

Hi all, I'm so happy to have so much company in the pararel universe of sleepless nights. I've thought I was going mad at points this weekend. After a gradual improvement over the week DD slept a few nights in 3 hour bursts, halleluia! Then last night after a wonderful day with a huge nap she slept beautifully for 3 hours and was then up off and on for about 4 hours before ending the night on another 3 hour stint. Is this progress?????
Glad to hear some of you are finding some success, I'm suffering from a severe lack of motivation today and its given me the kick on the bum to keep going.
Incidently whats PU/PD?

[danceswithbaby]

Me again, I posted the last message without reading properly (lack of sleep, I know you'll understand!) - Iris, so glad you had a better night!

Plan to make dd nap longer is working. Was poised and ready with boob, didn't think it'd work but it did! She's been out for almost 1.5 hrs now. And yes, she's on my lap. My bum's gone numb and I'm dying for the loo.......

[BikeBug]

more of the same here over the weekend - good and bad. Ds is really fighting sleep in the evenings - took from 7 to 9.37 last night - but he is getting better at naps. I'm not doing the logs and things properly, I'm working on the general principle of more naps = good, is everyone else being sorted and making notes?
Iris, so glad you had a better night! I'm with danceswithbaby on this - sleep at any price first, then perfecting sleep habits later (hopefully!)
I've just dragged myself out of bed after cuddling ds to sleep - I was hoping to be able to put him in his cot, but no chance, he knows when his head hits the cot not the big bed...
Dh is unfortunately now convinced that ds's night wakings (very chatty between 5 and 6 this morning) are because I've let him have too much sleep in the daytime

[BikeBug]

momomama - pu/pd is 'pick up / put down', I think it is from the Baby Whisperer books and the idea is you pick up your sleepless baby for just long enough to sooth and calm them, and then put them back down again. If I remember right, you put them down awake, always, so they don't rely on a big cuddle to fall asleep in your arms. I'm not keen on the Baby Whisperer personally, but many find her very helpful.
I think 3 hour sleep blocks are progress btw - just need them joining together now!

[moljam]

sorry to butt in.do you think ncss could work for me?thomas slept through from birth till 7 months with great long naps also(i know im lucky,i have 2 older children who didnt sleep till 2 years ago now aged 6 and 5)but has now decided against sleep.we cosleep half the night,i dont believe in cc and dont want to do anything that upsets him but would quite enjoy sleeping through!what does it involve?

[iris66]

dances with baby - PMSL with your numb bum. I now have a conditioned response to go to the loo as soon as I hear DS wake at night as I don't know how long I'm going to be with him
I think you're absolutely right, by the way,about focussing on actually getting sleep initially rather than the finer points of how.

DS naps, during the day, so much better when he sleeps well at night. He's been asleep for 1 hr 15 so far - unheard of for a morning sleep normally!

momomama - sounds like progress to me congratulations!! PU/PD is pick up/put down. From what I've gathered it's about going in & just settling them then leaving the room (again & again & again) until they realise that you are actually going to come & reassure them but they're not going to be allowed out of the cot. (please correct me if I'm wrong anyone as I've not really read much about it)

Sweetkitty - how's it going with you? hope you managed to get a nap or too over the weekend.

Anyhow, best go & sort himself some lunch for when he wakes. Glad it's sunny here - should make it pleasant for walking him to sleep later. Take care all.

[Papillon]

good to hear he had a better sleep ds only woke once so am very pleased about that

[sweetkitty]

We had a better night here last night as well, DD2 went down at 7.30pm absolutely shattered (she had one 30 min nap all day yesterday) woke back up at around 8ish I fed her again and she went through until 11.30pm (but that was because I had to move her to get into my bed as she had rolled from her cot onto my side of the bed). Anyway that was her until 6 this morning so it can be done. She had a feed at 6 then that was her until I woke her at 8.30am as we had to get ready for toddlers.

With DD1 we did a sort of baby whisperer PU/PD type of thing when she went into her own room at 15 months (long story as to why she was still in with us horrendous house move) she used to get up at 5am and come in with us (no feeding involved) so when she woke one of us would go in resettle her and lie on the floor next to her and each time she got up we resettled her again. Took about a week and a half then she slept straight through. Was hoping to do a similar thing with DD2 at a year when a plan to stop BFing but I don't know I can wait that long.

[BikeBug]

hi moljam (I know your name ). I think it is fine for older babies - the book is split into 2 sections, advice for babies 4 months to 2 years. The author co-slept and breastfed, so very friendly to that!