the no-cry sleep solution

[iris66]

has anyone tried it? (book by Elizabeth Pantley) I'm on day 2 & looking for a bit of support as I know it's going to take time. I'm dying through sleep depravation with 8mth DS who bfs to sleep but is very very tricky to move so have been cosleeping whilst he fidgets & kicks all night(and power naps during the day)
Think this is the last chance saloon before ear plugs & leaving him to get hysterical (even though I know that won't happen - i just couldn't, he really does do the whole temper, then sad then hysteria/shaking/terror/I've been abandoned thing - even if DH goes to him - such a mummy's boy)
Anyway, please post if you've been successful with this [hopeful emoticon]

[Pitchounette]

Message withdrawn

[moljam]

bikebug,wondered if you were same person :0.we part cosleep,lo spends first part of night in cot,although dh has suggested no cot just our matress on floor and full time cosleeping.would half and half confuse him and mess around ncss?does any one else i might know post on here?im not clever enough to use different name!

[fridascruffs]

i've also just read ncss and haven't used the whole routine or the logs, but did start with the Pantley Pull-of jobbie. Iris, I also found that after a couple of days my DD (7 mths) started clamping down in anticipation of being hoicked off the nipple, and she has one tooth and another coming so it's a bit painful. Have given up on it for last 2 days though cos I was too tired, have a DS of 2.3 who wakes once a night as well as DD's 3-4 times a night with a 5:15-5:45am wakeup-for-the-day time . DS is now ill so woke a few times last night. ncss sounds like a long job really.

[nearlythree]

Hi, re the pu/pd thing, you never leave the room while your lo is crying. You pick them up, soothe them, then when they are calm you put them down but continue to soothe them i.e. whipsering shhh, stroking their hair or patting their back (if old enough to front sleep). Then you withdraw that gradually until they no longer need you. Tracy Hogg (the Baby Whisperer) was very against CC (what she called 'Feberising') and believed that leaving a child to cry destroyed the trust between parent and child. I think I would have had more success with Pantley if dd2 hadn't been a boob addict - the Pull Off thing just never worked, she hung on with her teeth! With regard to the Baby Whisperer, I think that as with all parenting books you have to remember that parts of it will suit you and your baby and parts won't, but I certainly wish I'd had it when my first baby was born.

[mez656]

Just wanted to clarify - I'm in Brazil so the 4am postings are actually 10pm for me. The situation is not QUITE so desperate. Although, not to say I'm not awake at 4am more than I would like to be.

PU-PD, crying -- do people really think it's necessary for some crying to happen? I'm not good at handling crying... I also wonder about the PU-PD thing - is it not worse to be with the baby and let them cry so the baby learns that "mum lets me cry" or to do CC and at least you are not there? I guess I just think that my DD would get more upset if I were nearby and refusing the boob than if I weren't there at all...
But, really, I don't like CC or PU-PD and the gentle removal thing is not working for us.

[nearlythree]

mez, I can only tell you from my own experiences, with dd1, who was bottlefed, there was very little crying, but she didn't learn to put herself to sleep or sleep through the night until she was 2, through gradual withdrawl (very similar to a lot of NCSS techniques). Before this, her crying if left - even if I sat up on the bed rather than lying down - was pure distress and I put this down to her difficult birth. Dd2 otoh cried through tiredness and frustration. Sadly, after trying for over a year intermittently with NCSS and PU/PD I had to cold turkey the bf with her when she was 22 mo, by which time I was 20 wks pg with ds. Later we did gradual withdrawl, but it has only been recently that she has learned to really fall asleep by herself through rapid return (which is obviously only suitable for toddlers or older). PU/PD was better for her than NCSS and I wish I'd stuck with it.

Pu/PD isn't 'mum lets me cry', it's 'mum supports me through my crying'. IME nothing winds a baby up more than you coming in when they are distressed and then going away again. With pu/pd you pick them up when they are distressed and the only crying you allow to continue when they are lying down is the whingey tired crying. Mez, do you have a partner that can do any of this for you? It will be much easier whatever method you use if you start with someone else so the boob isn't around, although I appreciate how hard this is.

Now dd2 snuggles down in her little bed and it's her haven. It is so beautiful to see and she is a much healthier child for getting a decent amount of sleep.

(And ds puts himself to sleep in his cot without me even being there! )

[danceswithbaby]

Well, the nap strategy worked yesterday. We went from 4 x 30 minute naps to 2 x 1.5 hour naps! Did this mean she slept better? It did not. Up hourly 11pm-3am then half hourly until 6am. With a 40 minute suckathon somewhere around 1.30am. All in all another RSN (rite shite nite). Ah well. Today is another day and off we go again...

Even if this goes on until she's 30 though, I don't think I'll ever let her cry whether I'm there to witness it or not. I just don't think it's natural (hence why it hurts so much), or healthy for either of us. There must be another way and I refuse to give up!!!

[iris66]

danceswithbaby - I think this is the 2 steps back bit .
DS had 1.5 hrs yesterday morning then a further 45 mins in the afternoon following his good night. Last night he went down easily (again) but was up every hour until I brought him in with me at 11 (he also went on a mega suckathon from 4 - wriggling & fidgeting all over the place) I've given up doing the pull-off for the moment by the way

I'm hoping that by keeping the focus on naps the nights will eventually sort themselves out.

Know what you mean about the crying - I've just had a peek at the controlled crying thread but each to their own. I suspect some people think we're mad for not doing it

[fridascruffs]

With DS (now 2.3) I started to give him about 60ml of formula before he went to bed, because I thought he was waking through the night from hunger (now I think he was just waking ). I still bf him at all other times and before or after the bottle, until he was 13 months old. The bottle was no magic bullet, but it did help in the sense that, after a couple of months, he got used to it and would take that to bed with him and go off to sleep on his own. Also if he woke at night I could leave him with a bottle instead of bf. Not in the books I know and it's another habit to break later, but at least I got more sleep and he was happy. He gave it up pretty easily in the end, at about 18 mths.

[momomama]

Dances with babies, loved your RSN code, it had me laughing hysterically, which believe me I needed after last night.

Both Sun and Mon DD had one nap for over two hours, which i though was good as she's nearly 1. Last night was terrible though, she tossed and turned, woke up, bf, slept on the nipple and cried when removed. I was crying at one point too I was soooo frustrated and exhausted and hopeless this will ever start to work. Feel utterly fed up!

[nearlythree]

I think cc is horrible, too, and would never do it. But when you have a two yr old who is ill through lack of sleep, sometimes you have to make very difficult decisions. Unless you have been there, it might be wise not to be judgemental.

[iris66]

nearlythree - I hope I didn't come across as being judgmental earlier I believe parents do know instinctively what will & will not work for them & their child. I have no problem with CC in principle (after all, it works for many many people) - just that it's not my bag (yet).

[Difers]

Dear Monomama, I will will your baby to sleep well tonight. I'm sure things will get better.

Things I've discovered from my sleep logs to date.

1. DS always has 10 hours of night sleep regardless of how often wakes or how long stays up.
   
2. DS naps longest after swimming. But longer naps don't mean better sleeps, but do mean more rest for Mummy.
   
3. Has varible stretches of sleep from 1hour 15 mins to up to 7 hours. Therefore I don't think he is hungry at night but just waking and finding it tricky to fall asleep again.
   
   Take Care all, good night!!!

[iris66]

note to self - do proper sleep log !!!!

[momomama]

Have tried sleep logs the last two nights but never completed them after 11.30, ironically my most 'active' time with DD off and the breast like a yo-yo. How do you manage to write it down? I think it would be good to be able to identify patterns other than the dominant theme of no bloody sleep!
Hope you're all well rested this morning, I kicked DP out of the bed last night and this actually meant a better sleep for all the family. doesn't bode well for a sex life right enough!

[iris66]

momomama - I seem to end up in DS's room most nights so know know what you mean. The predominant theme here isn't so much the waking up as the not being able to settle again

I slept with DS from about midnight & he just kept waking every hour or so to chew me - it wasn't even comfort sucking (but then he is very dribbly so may be teeething again [groan]) I'd had enough by 5 so traded him with DH for the warm spot in our bed for a couple of hours (feeling very grateful to DH this morning for doing that - hthe house was freezing & we've got frost outside!!!!)

[BikeBug]

Very impressed by the sleep logs, Difers. I often can't remember in the morning how often I've been up in the night - last night he fed twice, or was it three times? And I think I was awake and rubbing his back to send him back to sleep once, or maybe twice... I suppose it is the good and bad of co-sleeping. Maybe if I could get him sleeping in his own cot, I wouldn't hear some of this and he'd settle himself, but then again maybe I'd have to get out of my warm bed, and be very aware of every single night waking... TOday I put him down for a nap, he woke up when he touched the bed, glared at me, turned over and went back to sleep. This is a major step forwards!

[momomama]

Oh iris, waking every hour is just exhausting. I know Pantley said it was a long term programme but this is ridiculous!
Ths stakes are getting higher as the things I would do for a 5 hour sleep are becoming more extreme as the days go on! The mind truely boggles.....

[momomama]

Congratulations bikebug!!!! I'm full of joy at your achievement (in the absence of any of my own)

[danceswithbaby]

Iris, I hope you're right about the two steps back bit! Yesterday's naps were right on target again, and so much fresh air and exercise...... But no. Another RSN Up every single hour from 9pm-6am. She does seem better rested though. I'm beginning to suspect that napping better just gives her more energy to but into night wakings!!

Have tried night logs but they made such depressing reading I stopped. I'll try again, and will give the nap-thing at least a couple of weeks before writing it off.

I tried the 'when baby unlatches, scoot away from baby' thing last night. Baby just scooted right after me. At one point we were both horizontal across the bed with feet in dh's groin. Not that he noticed, poor chap's forgotten he's got one.

[danceswithbaby]

OK, this nap-thing is getting out of hand. Dd woke from her usual nap 29 minutes and fifty nine seconds in, as usual and showed no inclination to go back to sleep, despite trying so hard that she bit me. So I took her swimming (the 'wear her out' part of the plan). This worked a treat and she fell asleep in the car seat on the way home. Tempted though I was to leave her there, I went by the book and put her to bed.

Then I started running round like a headless chicken because I'd put on the 'night-time sleep cue music' and not the 'day-time sleep cue music. I used to be normal.

Anyway, that was 2.5 hours ago and she's still there!! WHY CAN'T SHE DO THIS AT NIGHT?? I went in just before 30 minutes and she opened her eyes and looked at me then went right back to sleep again. Here I am wandering around not knowing what to do with myself.

Looks like I'm either going to have to get a swimming pool put in, or dangle in in the water-butt just before bed.

When she wakes, it'll be straight down the baby-gym.

Congrats on your breakthrough Bikebug!

Really pleased I made you smile Momomama.

[sweetkitty]

Well the past two night here haven't been all that bad, night before last she was up once at 12ish for a feed then that was her until 6 in the morning.

Last night was the best night ever, she went to bed at 9 with the usual BF, woke at 10.15pm but instead of giving her a boob I shhed her and rubbed her back, she was absolutely shattered and she went back to sleep herself until................ (wait for it) 5am, this is the longest she has ever gone in her life without boob. However, I woke with a jolt at 4 thinking what's wrong she's still in her bedside cot not in with me, there she was sound asleep next to me, no blanket on, upside down and face down in the cot! Had to prod her just in case. She had a feed at 5am and that was her until 8 this morning. I could cope with being owken at 5am for a feed at least then you have had a good few hours sleep yourself, the hourly thing is horrendous.

I think my copy of NCSS has arrived but I was out this morning so it's gone to the PO for collection instead. If we have nights like last night I may not have to use it, I know it's a blip I'm not even beginning to kid myself.

Daytime naps are still a bit hit and miss, she's had half an hour today total, just fed her at 2.30pm and she wasn't that bothered just latched off sat up and started to play! This means she will be overly tired come 7pm though which is a good and bad thing.

Hope everyone else in sleep deprived land isn't doing too bad.

[moljam]

someone mention day and night cue music,what do you use?can it be anything?im still trying to decide what to do ncss or thinking maybe baby whisperer although dont know much about either,just know i need sleep!im even thinking of giving up cosleeping although i really enjoy it as im worried im not helping thomas but confusing him!help!

[danceswithbaby]

Moljam, for 'day sleep cue music' I just use a 'sounds of nature' cd i got frm M & S. I make it loop so that it keeps going no matter how long she naps.

For night time, have you seen the Price Lionheart Slumber Bears on the market? It plays stuff apparently recorded inside a mother's womb. It seemed to calm my dd when she was born so my dh got it on the PC somehow & made it loop so it can go all night. Do you want me to e-mail it to you?

My dd does seem to know the difference between the night and day music, and when I put it on she seems to know it's nap/sleep time. It also blocks any external noises which may wake her.

I don't know anything at all about the 'whisperer' technique, I just know I'll never do anything that involves letting her cry.

Please, I don't want to be judgmental and I've found myself so much more tolerant of other people's parenting styles since having my own. It's just that CC, for many reasons, will never be for me and my daughter. So I've GOT to fine another way or die!!

Maybe changing your sleeping arrangements will confuse you ds and make for even less sleep in the short terrm? I know if I moved my dd away from me now I wouldn't sleep at all for worrying about her. But then again I haven't got two other children to worry about. Dunno... just go with your instincts. Good luck.

[moljam]

dancewithbaby,thankyou so much!i really do enjoy cosleeping and agree id also never do anything that may upset ds.i didnt think that change could make it worse!ds has gone to bed tonight with nature sounds cd playing,he went really easy,bath,massage and bottle!he had had no nap today though!ive not heard of princelion heart thing ,love to know more!