Misery loves company: to ride it out or Something Must be Done- pick your camp :)

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Hello again all- may the sleepers continue sleeping, the new arrivals due or here get the idea very quickly and the rest of us see the light at the end of the tunnel!

When is it deemed acceptable to join the thread? We only have one horrible sleeper and he's not even seven months yet... And he's a PFB, so we're complete wusses in addition to being too knackered to be working on it consistently.

Should I abandon all hope that he'll improve on his own before joining you, or is that optional?
You all seen lovely by the way, I'm just trying to figure out if it's time to stop hoping it'll get better on it's own. (I think I know the answer already, but opinions would be welcome).

Join us, scandichick! Ours are all over two now but we've been going since they were not much older than yours.

Some of us idiots are even on, or about to embark upon, round two of the hell that is no sleep.

Oh, and none of ours spontaneously improved, so I think abandoning hope is a reasonable course of action. At least if yours does improve, it'll be a pleasant and unexpected surprise and we shall curse your name forever more

Thank you!

Was wondering about that all right, best of luck to you all with your new babies! I'm sure it'll be completely different... that's the only way mine has any prospects of a sibling

It sounds ominous that you're at it for so long, though - seriously considering going straight for Ann or similar.

We're trying to use the NCSS strategies to get him to sleep somewhere other than on our chests at the moment, but after a two-week cold it just seems to be getting worse and worse.

I'm going back to work in October, and I don't think I'll be able to function if it continues like this. Never mind another few years...

Abandon All Hope!

To be honest, its a tricky one. We all tried everything when they were little, then when nothing worked we all gave up and tried riding the mo fo out. Now we are on the Something Must Be Done plans with more success I think. Though it would be nice to say that I think if we had done this when she was little she would have slept earlier I just don't think that's the case for dd. I don't think its a coincidence that her sleep has improved just around the same time her dairy intolerance seems too have subsided.

Does your Ds have reflux or intolerances at all? I think these things are pretty common on this thread and sorting then out will make a big difference if they are a problem.

What's your job? If you don't mind me asking. I went back to work when dd was in the throes of sleep regression (waking every hour at least) and it was a life saver for me. Work is so much easier then looking after a baby! But then I have an office jkob, others on here who work in hospitals might not feel the same :)

Ooo.. That was a bit if an interrogation! Welcome to the thread scandi :o

Don't worry scandi - I went back to work full time, to a brand new job, when DS was eight months old and still waking a minimum of eight times a night. Six wake ups was an amazing night You actually function a lot better than you think you're going to. I think the fatigue is more noticeable when you're at home, thinking constantly about how the FUCK you are going to make this child SLEEP. At work, you have distractions, other things to think about and toilet cubicles where you can sit and rock silently from time to time without being invaded by a baby. Don't expect to manage it without co-sleeping, mind, but it can be done.

If I end up with another non-sleeper (and all of us here are whole-heartedly of the belief that bad sleepers are born, not made), I think I will go back to Ann sooner than I did. Unlike others on here, I did try every sleep-training method going yes, including CC more than once with the only outcome being DS getting worse. I was so utterly convinced she would be incapable of changing him I nearly didn't go ahead with it, but it was so incredibly successful that if I look like I'd be going back to work on the same amount of (no) sleep that I had with DS, then I'll go back to her in a heartbeat. It was more survivable, going back to work like that, than I had expected, but don't get me wrong - It Was Not Fun.

Congratulations Bald!

That's brilliant news! And welcome to the world mini-Hedgehog (or Hog-hodge as DD1 very cutely calls them!). Fingers crossed you turn out to be one of those magic babies that spontaneously STTN from 8 weeks and evermore, undisturbed by wind/illness/teeth/digestive issues/light and noise!!

Welcome to the thread Scandi. I'm currently getting to that point with DD2 who is about to turn 6 months (where the bloody hell did that go?!) and who is currently spending every night refusing to sleep anywhere but on my chest. Again having a bit of a sleep regression.

I agree with Hear that a certain amount of it is age and development related. DD1 was a bloody awful sleeper for most of her first 2 years, despite various attempts at gradual withdrawal sleep training. She was 15 months before it seemed to click, although we have had numerous regressions since then, the most recent from March until about 4 weeks ago, with tantrums every bedtime, multiple night wakings and taking up to an hour to resettle. Not fun with a baby as well!

She has now gone back to settling well by herself and mostly sleeping through. If she does wake, she will usually re-settle quite quickly.

I've come to the conclusion however, that she won't be a reliably good sleeper until all of her teeth are through…

One thing that did help with her sleeping was noise - not so much white noise which she was never bothered about but at 15 months I discovered if I left talking books running, she was much less likely to wake up and scream for me. Don't know why talking books, but she still likes them now or otherwise classical music.

It was also very helpful when DD2 arrived as it softened any noises or cries at night so DD1 learned to sleep through if DD2 cries.

We're off tomorrow for holiday mark II. Hoping they got all the illnesses out of their systems on the first attempt….

I didn't cope as well as you I don't think elph at work. I did also have multiple at home to worry about, but that's a mere excuse, you're clearly amazing.

Hmm. I'm not sure. I'd now say Abandon All Hope after my DTs scandi but my PFB, DD slept all night by herself from very young (ebf) and then stopped, completely- getting up at midnight, back to sleep 5am type crap for 6 months and both times I did nothing and she just sorted herself out. My friend had a horrendous sleeper, absolutely dreadful. He's just started to sleep through the night abotu 6 months ago. He is 5 in September. Her second born is now 5 months and sleeps through sometimes. I really believe they're born not made. I've been knocking around here with elph and hear amd crew since my DTs were 10 or 11 months. Ahem.

My DTs both had reflux and food intolerances- dairy for (and ongoing) DT2 and dairy soya and egg (egg seems to be resolving), possibly tomato and allergic to kiwi for DT1 AKA Dt The Terrible. I personally wouldn't have used Ann any sooner as he only got his reflux sorted with current meds at 22 months old Oh- maybe don't abandon all hope- my DT2 was so dire I didn't think DT1 had any real problems til dt2 was sorted and sleeping much better by 11 months and DT1 was the same as a newborn no, really, Abandon All Hope If you're fairly sure there's no other issues get in touch with Ann !

Thanks for nightlight link elph DH had specifically been into our B&Q and they didn;t have any but off to my mums next week for about 5 nights so will try there. Your DS sounds adorable. We have the timer switches, just not the lights.

Anyway, it's nearly DT the T o'clock, best get into bed in readiness for kicking to the neck all night

I think we'll go straight to Abandon All Hope, it'll probably save time in the long run...

Hear, we only started weaning in the last few weeks, no sign of any intolerances yet despite going full BLW with dairy, meat and all. Don't think he has reflux either, but will definitely look into it again.

I'm in finance, so no lives are at stake – only quarterly reports

Can't wait to go back to work and get a little time to myself – since DS won't sleep alone at all, it's so bloody intense. We're already co-sleeping lentil-weavers, unfortunately that still results in hourly wake-ups most of the time.

It's interesting, it does seem to be partly due to developmental issues for some babies, but I do think some are just born bad sleepers, too. Apparently I was one, too. cosmic justice

Elph, last time we counted we had eleven wake-ups. Hopefully we can trim that down a little before October, but it's reassuring to hear that you got through work somehow.

Chocolate, that sounds familiar - why sleep on a bed when there's a perfectly good chest around to use as a mattress? Very impressed by how you've survived two bad sleepers at the same time, hope DD1 gets the rest of her teeth soon. Good luck with your holiday!

Dreaming, DS never slept well, so Abandon All Hope combined with Something Must Be Done it is. at your friend, 5 years old... was hoping it'd get better on its own long before then.
When I was a lot younger, I thought it seemed quite neat to have twins and get the baby years out of the way quickly. Yeah, right...

Did our first night outside the room last night. Had to walk her back to bed a gazillion times but she got there in the end. It is definitely the biggest leap as I was out of sight. Bless her. Dh is doing it tonight and I am sitting here on tenter hooks for some reason. I might have to go sit in the shed so I can't hear them :)

Oh, and we did the first full day without a nappy today. How we have ended up doing toilet and self settling at the same time I'm really not sure

Well done hear you're on a roll!

I am putting off learn to use the toilet. .. I just can't face two toddlers having accidents all the time. Maybe I'll try one at a time but not sure who to start with. dt1 wees all the time but will squeeze a tiny bit of poo and wee out on the potty every night. dt2 hates nappy changes and wees less so tempted to start with him . hmm. In a week or 2

Had a bad night last night, DS never settled back into a deep sleep after 3AM. My mum was staying over plus DH not working today so managed to get some sleep after my 'shift' was over, but dreading tonight.

I've taken the Baby Whisperer book out now, previously I dismissed the methods as far too rigid for my PFB but now I'm a little less precious about it... Worth a read anyway, I'm sure.

scandi I think you already identified the best of the 'sleep bibles' with NCSS - it was the only one that made any changes with DS, albeit minute, before we went to Ann. Good luck with Baby Whisperer, but kellymom lists it as one of the best books to sabotage a BFing relationship. Pat, shh is BW, IIRC. Nothing pisses a Velcro baby off more, IME!

Flipping hated the baby whisperer. Gave me nothing but guilt.

So I just realised I've been had here. Friday night, dh and a mate camped and then went to see the tour De France (only 30 miles from us!) Last night I slept with the horror and dh had a lie in til . 10 am this morning. oh good I think. My lie in tomorrow (dh off work a week) . No , he promised dd camping in the garden. That's another morning up for me with the boys then. Gah. dt2 doing terribly at staying in bed. He said "it's tricky mummy" tonight- so sweet. DH hopeless keeps leaving his post at dt2 door then going ballistic and basically snapping/half shouting at him to get back in bed and stay there. Believe me, I have talked about calm and consistent to him. But bearing in mind I am very guilty of being a crap shouty mum the last week I can hardly tell. him from my pedestal

DT1 just about going to.sleep.not holding my hand. I'm nowhere near the out of sight stage though. Plus we are at my mum's 5 nights next week , Ann is away so we aware having a week off. I am utterly dreading trying to get him. to.fall.asleep by himself elsewhere. With the time pressure of trying. to go down to eat with my mum will have cooked us something nice i bet. Fuck. Children can't wait to go..dt2 thought we were going when we went to get them all new bike helmets (well, first ones for the boys, new for.dd) as they weren't in stock so got them ordered to collect from.the branch near my mum's. told dt2 who obviously misunderstood and thought we were going there then and there. Cue tears and huge upset when we pulled onto our own drive Then he promptly fell off his bike onto his head on the road outside our house twice this evening. That'll learn me. dt1 getting too bloody fast on it and gliding with both feet up briefly and all they want to do is go on bikerides. ..

Anyway. enough of that. Ncss maybe helped partly with dd but is very minor ways. I'm not sure we will succeed with Ann either, I'm. losing faith. especially as I'm going on a course for new job tomorrow and dh who is clearly wholly incompetent is doing bedtime.

The Baby Whisperer seems to have the same routine for all babies - that'll work
Was hoping the pick up, put down method might be useful, but people here on MN don't exactly seem blown away with it. Shush-pat works here sometimes, if he's already asleep...

Elph, Kellymom is ace, thanks for the link! I've been told so much misinformation about breastfeeding that I always double-check her site first, but it never occurred to me that there was a whole blacklist.

Dreaming, are you doing any better or is it still crap?

I couldn't get him to go down at all last night, but at least we got some sleep I suppose. DH managed to get him to sleep in his cot a little, though.

We do shifts so both of us can get some unbroken sleep - I think we should swap so I can co-sleep in the beginning of the night when DS is sleeping heavier, but for some reason DH isn't keen on going to bed at nine and getting up at half four-ish.

Ah, yes. Pick up, put down. I think that's the one I was thinking of rather than pat, shh. Definitely didn't work, sorry!

Dreaming I think your DH needs Words. If he's willing to fund a sleep consultant, he can't expect the mere act of handing over the cash to be the only effort required. If it doesn't work, would he acknowledge that it was due to his inconsistency or would it be Ann's fault? Fortunately, my DH was very good under strict direction and we're neither of us shouty types. But then, it does come back to the fact that we've only got the one to cope with, not three, which I'm sure makes an enormous difference to the limits of coping and patience.

Well, I reset DS's GroClock to 6am wake-up from 5:50am as he clearly seems to get the idea now. Let's see how we go...

Can I join this thread? All the other babies in my other support thread seem to be sleeping waaaaay more than mine now, I feel like the class dunce.

My DS is 17 weeks, EBF, stubborn little bottle refuser, arch 35 minute catnapped, 3-5 time a night waker.

In desperation last week we've started cc and at least now I can put him down for his measily short naps and night sleeps in his cot awake and he'll such his fingers to sleep after a bit of a protest. Before this I was co-sleeping and feeding to sleep but he was waking up every time I transferred him and it was getting right on my tits.

Was awake from 2-6 last night so I'm losing the plot somewhat today.

Hello mrsmugo ahhh, a tiny littlie joining us. Go ahead though we're probably going to be too annoying unless elph and bald come and complain about their sleep deprivation with their newborns- once baby elph arrives of course! I hope you do guys :) Ours are older- my dts are 27 months now 2-6 is dire. Bad luck. Here we believe they're either born sleepers or they're not. I've 2 good sleepers and one awful one so that clearly proves the theory

I didn't realise most were older in this thread - well you can all be the wise elders then.

Yes I also believe I've been gifted with a crappy sleeper. It's a good job he's cute!

Hello everyone and CONGRATULATIONS bald! May the little one sleep through the night at the ripe age of 12 weeks.

Hear I think you might indeed be the only sane one.

Dreaming how's the program working out for you? Is Elph's clone baby still sleeping?

Welcome to the thread mrsmugoo and scandi.

I might have to consider it for DS2; last night he woke up every 30ms. I don't think I can ride the mofo out for 16 months with this one too.

I never thought I'd say this, but he might just be worse than his sister

This was supposed to be my sleep-like-a-dream baby.

Morning ladies, signing in and saying hello. I've got a 24 month old DD and 5.5 month DS. Status quo is currently acceptable.

DD was a horror- baby for sleeping but it was mainly because she refused pretty much anything but milk until about a year old so was genuinely hungry several times a night! She was also a short napper, breastfed to sleep blah blah blah. We tried all the soft methods (NCSS) but she wasn't having any of it. It was with a heavy heart that we did CC at 15 months, and although she screamed like someone was murdering her she wasn't ever distressed just really, really cross! We managed to get her doing 7-7 with a dream-feed after two nights (from 3-4 wakings for milk). I was 6 months pregnant at the time so Something Had To Be Done! She randomly dropped the DF of her own accord after a spell of illness at 21 months. She's pretty good now, which is lovely. Buuuuuuuuut! We'll be taking the side off her cot soon and given the current level of bed time antics ("jumping mummy!" Her cot is apparently a trampoline ), I think she's going to be difficult about staying in bed so might need to pick your brains down the line

DS is coming up for six months and by comparison to DD at the same age, he's pretty good. Bed at 7pm. Usually 2-3 wakings, quick feed (FF) and back to sleep. He's a bit of a monkey for waking up between 5 & 6am chattering for 30 mins or so then going back to sleep for an hour. Usually what happens is we ignore him until he starts fussing, then DH goes in and switches the cot mobile on, which plays for 18 mins and usually he's asleep by the time that's finished. He has a dummy. Total daytime sleep is about 2.5 hours over 3-4 naps. He can manage about 2.5 hours awake time between naps. Currently weaning!

My situ is a bit weird at the moment. I'm currently recovering v slowly from cancer surgery, and am having more surgery on Saturday to deal with a slow healing wound. I'm not really doing any of the caring for my children - they're being looked after by DH when he's not at work, and both sets of grandparents help out when he is, including overnight. Getting up at night with DS wouldn't bother me too much as things currently stand, but the people who are having to do nights are all looking pretty exhausted (GPs are all early 60s). My mum was saying last week that it'd be good to try and get DS sleeping a 7-8 hour stretch if poss. I don't know how to do this at the moment. I can't physically do anything to help as I'm on bed rest. Does anyone have any suggestions? CC is absolutely not an option for me whilst he's so young and there's a chance he might be hungry when he wakes at night. We have tried doing a dream feed, which usually means he wakes around 2.30-3, and then again at 5-6am.

Sorry for the essay

Crikey - I've had to get the laptop out for this one so I can cross-reference the new posts!

mrsmugoo Welcome! Yes, ours are all older but we've been here a depressingly long time. My DS was 2 in May and his little brother is due in about 3.5 weeks. Scan tomorrow to find out if we go straight to c-section. Yours does sound like a suitably crappy sleeper for our thread but also remember 17 weeks is four month sleep regression territory. On a scale of hippy to hard-faced-bitch when it comes to sleep training, we run the full spectrum here and don't hoik judgy pants at all if you choose, or not, to sleep train. However, CC at four months old is a touch young (and I say this having tried it myself - unsuccessfully - a few times). I only say this because you might be putting yourself through hell with little to no result, and certainly no lasting result. You can't really do CC while maintaining night feeds, which, at four-months, is essential IMO to support the big growth spurt they're having. I know a lot of books say they don't need night feeds from four months onwards but all here are of the consensus that that is a load of bollocks. Physiologically, there is too much going on to drop them. Even Ferber says not to try CC until after 6 months old. When my DS was a few weeks older than yours, I did do gradual withdrawal, while he was still in the room with us, which did stop the sleeping-on-me hell that he'd put me through for several weeks prior to that. Still woke up every couple of hours after that, but at least I was getting some baby-free sleep. I eventually gave up on trying to keep him in the cot all night and co-slept for part/all of the night from about seven months. That's my two-cents worth anyway

Poppy My DS clone is still sleeping like an absolute star! I'm going to write a slightly overdue update to Ann after writing this behemoth. She says she likes to get two month updates on her clients. First morning this morning with GroClock re-set to 6am, and I didn't hear a peep out of him until about 6:03am, when I heard him shouting, 'Mummy! Sun! Awake!'

Welcome beccajoh Since there's some on here who have yet to get an un-interrupted stretch of 7-8 hours at over two years old