We met Andrea Grace - here is the aftermath

[lucidlady]

I've posted several times about my 10 month old DD's appalling night time sleep habits. She woke up roughly every 90 minutes during the night and the only way I could get her back to sleep would be to feed her. She also used to end up in our bed every night as well, and I would then be wide awake from about 3am onwards. I'm back at work FT and the sleep deprivation has been absolute murder.

In desperation, I have read just about every sleep book there is on the market. Controlled crying is not an approach that I am comfortable with, I just cannot stand leaving DD to cry hysterically. It makes my boobs ache and my heart weep. Yes I am a wimp.

Andrea Grace is one of the only books I've read that doesn't immediately promote controlled crying as the only solution. I also read the No Cry Sleep Solution but I have the attention span of a sleep deprived gnat, and I couldn't seem to figure out what I actually had to do. After one particularly awful night where DD screamed from 1am - 5am I announced to DH that I was going to go and see Andrea Grace.

She asks you to keep a sleep diary and send this to her before the appointment. I have been tracking DD's sleep since she was days old so I was able to send her way too much sleep data. DD and I went to see her last week, and in a nutshell, this is what she told us to do:

1. Re-affirm the bedtime routine.
   
2. Cut the nighttime breastfeeds.
   
3. Do not take DD out of her cot into our bed.
   

All sounds great doesn't it? I was more interested in HOW exactly she thought I would achieve this. She said that I should push the bedtime routine back - I was giving the bath far too early. Also, I was to stop DD falling asleep on the boob. Andrea suggested waking her up to read her a story if this happened - the same story needs to be read every night. And then once DD has had her milk and her story, put the light out, say sleepy time (or similar) and pop her in the cot. Once this happens, I am to sit near DD, cuddling and stroking while she is in the cot is allowed but I cannot take her out of the cot again unless she is sick etc. If she wakes in the night, I am to cuddle or stroke her but not lift her out.

Night 1: DD took an hour to settle down to sleep at 8pm. Woke 45 mins later, just needed a quick pat and went back over. Woke again at 1.30am, took an hour to settle back to sleep then slept til 6.40am.

Night 2: Took 22 mins to settle down at 8pm, slept til 2.30am. 20 mins to go to sleep then slept til 3.38am. More or less awake and screaming until 5.09am then slept until woken up at 8.35am.

Night 3 (also known as the worst night of my life): Took an hour to settle from 7.45pm. Woke up at 10.10pm, back over at 10.25 and slept til 2.05am. Absolute hysterics. Back down at 3.10 then awake every hour from 4am onwards for up to 15 mins.

Night 4: An hour to settle from 8pm. Slept until 2am. Back over at 2.07am and then slept until 6.45am...

No doubt I have now jinxed everything but I am feeling much more positive today. I'll update again in a few days.

[RillaBlythe]

Thanks for asking lucid I haven't really decided! I fed her, read the stru & put her down - she wriggled, sat up, cried a bit & eventually went to sleep after 35 mins with my hand on her chest. But anxious about the idea of not feeding her in the night - I know she will be angry! Wondering whether to do putting her down awake for a few nights then move on, although missing the night feeds isn't really related I suppose!

[pookypup]

A little update from us - asleep in a record 20 mins and I haven't heard a peep from him since.

A friend who has been through this suggested I tried to not comfort him so much now we have been doing it for a while. I more or less ignored him and just sat next to the cot. It seemed to work better than cuddling and trying to comfort (it's my night 7).

Jan, it's horrible when they just cry for so long. It will improve I'm sure.

[lucidlady]

DD woke up screaming last night, absolutely inconsolable so I lifted her out of the cot. She kept on screaming so I ended up having to give her a feed to calm her down. I think she was hungry as she absolutely guzzled the milk, then just cuddled up to me and then crawled off in the direction of the cot again! had to lift her back in so she could go back to sleep, bless. She then slept til 7am.

How did you get on Rilla pooky and everyone else? pooky your friend is absolutely right btw, Andrea says this is part of the withdrawal to achieve the ultimate aim of baby going to bed and to sleep without any intervention from us.

[BartiiMus]

Oh wow I am a convert!
DH says not to get too excited as it was just one night but hey! Best night in ages

Breastfed DS in his room rather than on our bed. As he started to fall asleep I got the book out and he pinged awake (he loves books). But was very pissed at being then put into his cot.

He cried and cried and screamed and cried. Stood up whenever I lay him down. I ended up cuddling him with him in the cot screaming at me and nearly gave up. But then I looked at the clock and saw that he'd only be crying for 10 minutes!

He eventually stayed lying down when I put him down but still cried. The only thing that stopped him crying was my rubbing my hand back and forth on his cot bumpers. Touching him annoyed him but that rubbing the bumpers calmed him. He fell asleep after 30 minutes of crying. Much better than I thought it would be although still horrible.

He woke up at midnight and 4am - each time it took me only 10 minutes to get him back down again. Then our alarm woke him up at 7.15!

We did cheat slightly - during the night I BF him and put him down practically asleep - just a couple of pats and he was out. My plan is to install the bedtime routine which already means he wakes less frequently, then tackle the night feeding and waking. I need to catch up on sleep myself, even if this way takes longer.

jan How old is your DC? DS sleeps in his pushchair in the day, even in the flat. We're lucky that we've got a very long hallway so we just push him up and down that. I know he 'should' be in his cot but my parents look after him and this works very well so until the nights are better we're leaving it like this. At least this way he sleeps at least 2 hours a day which he really needs.

[BartiiMus]

I forgot to say, I finished reading AG's book yesterday and I liked the fact that she said how to deal with sickness at night and the fact that I too now have a sleeping problem from having gone 11 months waking up many times a night, and find it harder to get to sleep.

[jan2011]

dd is almost 12 months, she has stopped wakening as much during the night which is amazing but now won't go to sleep. she gets up at around 7am, sometimes she has 2 naps one around 10 and one around 3 for about 25 minutes each, but lately she has been moving to one longer nap around lunchtime, usually just after lunch. she doesn't usually sleep longer than an hour, no matter what i do.

her bedtime routine is dinner at 5, bath at 5.45, bottle around 6.45, story and bed around 7. last night she fell asleep on the bottle as she was exhausted but i woke her and put her into the cot (she woudn't have stayed asleep in the transfer anyway - much too alert) and then she got a second wind and was hyper for ages in the cot. she isn't always crying in the cot but clearly protesting.

i don't have the strength to keep laying her down time after time. i dread bedtimes! any ideas?

[BartiiMus]

jan No ideas I'm afraid but I sympathise. I went through a stage of crying before DS' bedtime as I was just so tired and fed up and depressed with it all.

DS is 11.5 months and I think he's approaching that tricky stage of maybe dropping one nap but not being sure so some days falls asleep at midday (before lunch!) - one day this weekend he slept til 2.30pm so had lunch very late! (and mucked up the rest of the routine)

DS gets up between 7 and 8 (depends on when our alarm goes off), first nap is around 11am (used to be 10am until a couple of weeks ago) for about 35 minutes, second nap is between 2 and 3pm, for anything between 30mins and 2 hours...hard to know. If he does a longer nap it's usually cos he's woken up once and then has been walked around again in his pushchair to send him back off to sleep.

But we don't start the bedtime routine til 7.30pm (bath) and he's usually asleep by 8.30pm (and then wakes in the night but hey, hopefully that'll stop soon!)

For eating it's
9am breakfast
12.30 lunch
4pm bottle
6pm dinner
Then a breastfeed at night.

To be honest the only thing I could suggest is putting her to bed later. Although if she's exhausted at 7 that'll be hard.

Do you have quiet time at the end of the day? We find that around 5pm DS is really irritable, so we calm him down with books and sometimes 15mins of a DVD if he's really fractious, then he gets a second wind after dinner and is ready to go to start his bed routine at 7.30 although he almost never falls asleep before 8.

It's so hard isn't it?

[jan2011]

thanks so much for the hugs and understanding im sorry you went through feeling so down about it all too - and the tiredness affects everything too im sure. do you feel youve come through that stage now?

yeah i do try to wind her down with the cbeebies and that, i guess though she is darting across the floors and not generally getting that calmed, so i could try more book reading. i was thinking of spraying some lavender essential oil in her cot!

believe it or not, tonight is the night my dh (exdh) took dd for awhile. he took her to his mums and bathed her there after work and was to bring her home to do her story and put her down. of course, she fell asleep in the car, and he transferred her straight to the cot! why do men always get it easy? typical! he has no clue what im going through every night. but i hope that she will not be waking up all night, now that she didn't remember going into the cot, ifuswim.

[GEM33]

i ve read some but need to catch up on posts, thanks so much for being supportive. this really is a brilliant thread lucid. i not got time to post properly now but will be back.

[lucidlady]

Evening all.

Tonight is NOT going to plan. DD hasn't napped properly today, and her afternoon map finished an hour earlier than usual so I thought I'd put her to bed an hour earlier, ie at 7pm. I have clearly learned NOTHING as she is still fecking awake and I bet you she conks out at 8pm as per bloody usual. WHY do I do this to myself... At least she's stopped verbally abusing me and is just giving me baleful looks instead....

Barti sounds like night 1 went really well! How did last night go?

jan I don't lay DD down. I just let her march around. Eventually she tires herself out. I agree with barti that a later bedtime might be worth a shot? Try pushing the bath back. If she has her bottle at 645 than a 545 bath might be too early? Try bath at 615? Our bath was originally too early as well and Andrea told me to push it back. How did it go last night?

How's everyone else doing?

[lucidlady]

Really must learn my lesson... 1954 and DD has just gone to sleep.

Time for

[jan2011]

another bad night here too and also im sat in tears cos my ex has upset me. hugs lucid your night sounds rough. i think i will try to have the bath later and maybe try putting her in later. i let her do her own thing for awhil in the cot tonight for awhile and it was easier for me, but she did just wind herself up...
its so difficult all this. please someone tell us it gets easier soon!

[lucidlady]

Hugs to you too jan. What happened in the end, how did she go to sleep? Do you think she might be picking up on your frustration? I know my DD was which is why Andrea kept telling me to be cheerful and upbeat when talking to her.

It does get easier, I promise. Do you have anyone who can give you a break in the daytime?

[GEM33]

jan, sounds like you are doing amazing especially as your without dh. and yes, typical that he got it easy. i think men dont worry about things half as much as we do and their laid back approach rubs off to the kids.

barti- omg, im at the sleeping problem stage now too. even though im totally exhausted, and when dd is asleep, i lie there awake dreading the next wake up etc. i am going to buy this a/g book i think.

im up to speed with everyone now! purely down to the fact that lots of you are making progress Im going to try this. dh and i have formulated a plan.

so, we have been co sleeping for 9 months now. We did move the cot to the side of the bed after dd grew out of the proper co sleeper bed 2 months ago but we found that the only person actually in the cot was half of my body and my pillows because dd was spread eagled in the middle of our superking size bed!!
so weve put the side back on and moved the cot away from the bed. we are going to carry on feeding to sleep but make sure that every single time we are putting her in the cot. also we are going to stop giving boob every single time she wakes up. i'll feed her every 2-3 hours and dh has said he will rock her back to sleep inbetween so as to cut down the amount of boob without too much distress.
then in a few days-hopefully she'll be more used to the cot and bit less boob, we'll start properly to do this a/g thing of putting her in the cot and leaving her to it to self settle and we'll try giving water instead of boob.
Ive had to promise dh that i wont lose the plot at night and give in. i'll keep you posted!
lucid, do you think that now your dd is sleeping more in the night its brought about earlier wakings?

[BartiiMus]

Argh. Im sorry to report that night 2 and 3 did not go as planned :-(

Bedtime was easier - only 5 mins crying last night easily distracted by kisses BUT woke 6 times in the night (both nights) sometimes with only 30 mins between wakeups. Its now 6.30 sunday and hes babbling away in the cot next to me. I cant decide whether to get him up or see if he'll fall asleep again. Its still dark outside :-(

Am hoping its teething causing the wakeups as he was unusually grouchy all day yesterday. Calpol hasnt seemed to do much though.

DH has decamped to the living room so one of us at least can have a decent sleep. I really hope this method works eventually as id like DH to take over some of the bedtimes and maybe night wakings. Nearly 12 months old and I've done them all!

[jan2011]

lucid i think you have a point there - i am ok the first while and then i get more frustrated and she may pick up on this so i ill watch that. thanks gem for the encouragement...im sorry you are so tired at the minute too its so hard sometimes as tiredness affects so much. i hope you get some rest today.

bart that must be so hard doing it all yourself for a year... i really hope you find a way your dh can help more even getting him involved in her bedtimes more or the early wake up. i don't think its fair really for one person to have all that burden especially when she is up 6 times a night! maybe dh could take her today so you can get some kip?

my dd has started sleeping in the past few days! this is unusual. she used to wake up around 6.30 -7 and now its an hour later. i don't mind this, but im up from 6 anyway...in fact sometimes im up from 5 as i fed her at 5 and then couldn't get back to sleep again. perhaps this is cos she is falling asleep later now? she has also changed her daytime naps from 2 to one longer one around just after lunch.

good luck everyone tonight. today dh is taking dd for a few hours. i will be glad just to get some peace and quiet and get the ironing done. :)

[RillaBlythe]

How old is your dd Jan? It must be hard with nobody around to give you a break.

Bart 4 years down the line with dd1 & dp has pretty much never done a night waking! Oh well. He does do bedtimes now though.

So I have been putting dd down awake at bedtime the past three nights, & she's settled okay around the 30min mark, no real crying. Haven't had the courage to do it in the night, can't cope with getting any less sleep plus anxious that she still needs the milk..., but last night she went down at 8pm & didn't wake until 5am! Then she went back down till 6.15. So clearly she doesn't need the milk. My boobs were full but not engorged. Amazing. Maybe I will try not feeding her tonight then...

[jan2011]

Rilla she is coming 1. my mum has been a great help she comes a few times a week. i am the same as you in that i haven't the courage to do this during the night yet... but actually, i haven't needed to as much as she hasn't woke as much (apart from whe she was teething - but i wouldn't do that to her when she is teething) so it is definately helping with her night wakenings. and i heard someone say that if you feed them around 5 -6 even if they don't really need it, it can help them stay over longer, so i don't mind. and this is working out now cos she is sleeping in!

[GEM33]

barti -i know exactly what you mean, i start off calm and think its not my dd's fault she is upset or wakes when i put her down, she doesnt understand and then after so many times, when you havent had your tea and your knackered, its starts to get really frustrating. you just have to go to a calm place in your head and like someone has said on here before put on a cheery voice. xx
rilla, thats amazing sleep, so what youre saying is that you dont get dd to re settle at nigt, you carry on feeding but the self settling at the start of the night is having an impact on the sleep? thats brilliant.
dd slept in her cot all night last night!! woke up 7 times but i only fed her 3 times and dh rocked her back to sleep in between ... i had the best sleep ive had for ages without her in bed. co sleeping just wasnt working any more for me. which is sad because i love having her close.

[BartiiMus]

Night 4 was better - yay!
Asleep 10 minutes after I put him in his cot (wide awake after his favourite book) although he did cry quite a lot.

Two wakeups : 2am and 6am then up for the day at 7.20am. both wakeups were quite hard - lots of distressed crying and both times I got him back to sleep (one minute BF then put in cot awake but soothing him) only for him to wake up again 15 minutes later and have to do it again.

Still, a big improvement.

I don't know when or whether to drop the nightfeeds though; I'm kinda hoping he'll just start sleeping through and I won't have to not offer IYSWIM. For the moment I'm still offering as it's over 30 degrees here so I think he's thirsty in the night. I could offer water but he loves water so I don't think that would stop him waking up!

jan as for the tiredness affecting everything and just getting so tired and upset at the thought of bedtimes/night well...to be honest I've been feeling like this since DS was 6 months. I do through phases of dispairing but then it gets slightly better and I feel ok.

Then it goes bad again and I'm crying with exhaustion again. I'm in a fairly good place at the moment as I feel that the bedtimes are a hundred times better and at the weekend I get to have a snooze It's usually at the end of the week that I'm flat out with tiredness.

[jan2011]

Its just learning how to deal with it isn't it and to be kind to yourself and take life a bit easier than if you were feeling100% i find. like its ok to just watch a movie all afternoon if ur just shattered! im glad ur in a better place at the minute.

re my dh putting her to sleep - its easier for him as we aren't living together anymore, so she is coming after having a bath at his mums, she falls asleep in the car, and he just transfers her to the cot asleep - done! he never faces her going in awake.

[jan2011]

don't know why this is taking so long for her to get it. tonight was so difficult too, i took her back downstairs for awhile after the first try, to get her more tired. then she was still hart to get down in the cot. its like she is expecting a mess about in the cot. and if i don't engage at alll with her and just let her do her thing, she gets really upset.

[BartiiMus]

How long does she get upset for? The first night with DS he cried hard for 30 minutes. I so nearly caved but kept repeating to myself the "3 Cs" from AG : "calm, confident and the other one" (I can never remember it )

Now he's going down with only 5 minutes crying but still waking once in the night and for the day at 6am

How much does she move about during the day?

It ma be that she's not ready for this. DS would not have been ready for this even just a month ago.

[jan2011]

the thing is she is not crying. she is not really upset, she is more just messing about in the cot and whinging a bit at times. it just takes her ages of getting up and being laid down to finally wind down and go to sleep....she hasn't actually been crying for nights now. she moves about a good bit during the day, but she isn't walking yet and is almost there with it so maybe that will help get more energy out of her

[RainbowBlue]

Hello all this sounds like my dd. currently been awake since 1.20am trying to get her back to sleep resorting to sleeping on her floor as she wakes every 45 mins. So tired feel like I'm turning into a monster . Wish she'd sleep as my husbands 3 yr old loud noisy niece will be here at 8 am for the whole day as MIL baby sits her.

I've tried this method and it just doesn't seem to work! She's just regressing even further, tonight ive been trying to get her to sleep since 7.30pm, it's now 3.20 am and she's waking every 45 bloody mins. She used to do this at 4 weeks old