We met Andrea Grace - here is the aftermath

[lucidlady]

I've posted several times about my 10 month old DD's appalling night time sleep habits. She woke up roughly every 90 minutes during the night and the only way I could get her back to sleep would be to feed her. She also used to end up in our bed every night as well, and I would then be wide awake from about 3am onwards. I'm back at work FT and the sleep deprivation has been absolute murder.

In desperation, I have read just about every sleep book there is on the market. Controlled crying is not an approach that I am comfortable with, I just cannot stand leaving DD to cry hysterically. It makes my boobs ache and my heart weep. Yes I am a wimp.

Andrea Grace is one of the only books I've read that doesn't immediately promote controlled crying as the only solution. I also read the No Cry Sleep Solution but I have the attention span of a sleep deprived gnat, and I couldn't seem to figure out what I actually had to do. After one particularly awful night where DD screamed from 1am - 5am I announced to DH that I was going to go and see Andrea Grace.

She asks you to keep a sleep diary and send this to her before the appointment. I have been tracking DD's sleep since she was days old so I was able to send her way too much sleep data. DD and I went to see her last week, and in a nutshell, this is what she told us to do:

1. Re-affirm the bedtime routine.
   
2. Cut the nighttime breastfeeds.
   
3. Do not take DD out of her cot into our bed.
   

All sounds great doesn't it? I was more interested in HOW exactly she thought I would achieve this. She said that I should push the bedtime routine back - I was giving the bath far too early. Also, I was to stop DD falling asleep on the boob. Andrea suggested waking her up to read her a story if this happened - the same story needs to be read every night. And then once DD has had her milk and her story, put the light out, say sleepy time (or similar) and pop her in the cot. Once this happens, I am to sit near DD, cuddling and stroking while she is in the cot is allowed but I cannot take her out of the cot again unless she is sick etc. If she wakes in the night, I am to cuddle or stroke her but not lift her out.

Night 1: DD took an hour to settle down to sleep at 8pm. Woke 45 mins later, just needed a quick pat and went back over. Woke again at 1.30am, took an hour to settle back to sleep then slept til 6.40am.

Night 2: Took 22 mins to settle down at 8pm, slept til 2.30am. 20 mins to go to sleep then slept til 3.38am. More or less awake and screaming until 5.09am then slept until woken up at 8.35am.

Night 3 (also known as the worst night of my life): Took an hour to settle from 7.45pm. Woke up at 10.10pm, back over at 10.25 and slept til 2.05am. Absolute hysterics. Back down at 3.10 then awake every hour from 4am onwards for up to 15 mins.

Night 4: An hour to settle from 8pm. Slept until 2am. Back over at 2.07am and then slept until 6.45am...

No doubt I have now jinxed everything but I am feeling much more positive today. I'll update again in a few days.

[GEM33]

This is so interesting! well done for your will power! youre doing amazing.
my dd wakes 10-20 times a night usually. with stretches of 1-3 hours awake some nights.
i would love to try this but im scared. we tried no cry solution and there was hysterics for 3 hours each night, once asleep sobbing in her sleep for an hour gave up after 3 days and a clingy baby.
the fact that it is only taking you an hour or so to settle at night makes me think that my dd is more of a hard nut because when i try to get her to fall asleep without boob it takes 2-3 hours even if it means she has been awake for 8 hours (she cant manage more than 4 hours awake time). the crying is more hysterical distressed "im going to die" if i dont have boob kind of wailing.
im going to google andrea grace as im interested to know if she was very expensive!
well done you though. i think you've done bloody fantastic.

[DuggiWontSleep]

.....ang again at 5.15 and up for day at 6.

[lucidlady]

duggi I'm so impressed by you resisting the milk feed. Like you I thought night 1 was easy, so I was a bit shocked at night 2 and then night 3 was just awful. I think what kept me going was the thought that if I caved in, the previous night's hard work would have been for nothing. Definitely make sure you feed him early and fill him up with milk, that's what I've been doing with DD and that seems to be working. Have you got a sippy cup or something in the room that you can use to give him water?

DD went down at 7.15 and then woke at 4.23. I could not get her back over so just got her up for the day at 5.30. She then proceeded to fall asleep on the floor, little madam. Woke her up gently and put her back in the cot, but she was having none of it.

Gem33 The package we got with Andrea cost £250 for a face to face consultation in Harley Street and 8 follow up sessions by phone. She does home visits if you're in North London, and that package would cost £350. I'm in SE London though, so had to go see her. I would definitely recommend her as despite the fact that DD is not quite sleeping through yet, we've seen such a HUGE improvement on her previous sleep pattern! How old is your DD?

[DuggiWontSleep]

Lucid - do you think that maybe he still needs two naps during day as he usually starts day at 6 (yawn!) and im thinking that waiting until 11.30/12 to put him down for first nap may be making him overtired? When he woke up this morning he would not stop yawning...he really did look exhausted. Just at a loss as to what to do.

Also when your DD wakes do you feed her water?

I feel as though as soon as we're starting to make progress he regresses again -almost as if to tease me !

As I'm following the plan you have kindly shared with us, do you think its still worthwhile me seeing Andrea?

Im just so desperate - worse thing is I'm starting a full time job in two weeks.

Sorry for all the questions.

[lucidlady]

duggi how old is he? Personally I found that going to see Andrea was immensely helpful. I'd already read her book and I knew roughly what her technique was, but in our chat, she also identified some other issues that I hadn't realised were causing problems. I think it is definitely worth talking to her to be sure that the plan will work for you personally. Are you in London? If you're not, then she does Skype consultations too if that is any good?

You said he's regressing - have you tried to train him before and if so what else have you tried? I give DD water when she wakes up. I figured that I get thirsty in the night so she probably does too. I've got one of those tommee tippee no spill cups and just keep that in her room.

If he's really tired then I'd let him sleep. I find with DD that if she gets overtired she gets totally manic and then bedtime becomes a complete battle. It might be worth just letting him have an extra hour or so to take the edge off?

I feel for you re the full time working. I work full time too and it is an absolute killer getting up in the night. You need to get this sorted asap. Andrea is so lovely. I more or less burst into tears in front of her and she told me I wasn't the first and won't be the last! Give her a call and have some un MN hugs ((duggi))

[jan2011]

hi does anyone have any ideas for me

ive been sort of following this method...after really bad sleep. the first few nights she cried but now she doesn't cry in the cot, but she still won't go to sleep (this is 3 weeks later). she will crawl round the cot and stand up continually unless i hold her down. she will even smile sometimes and think its a game. and she is completely knackered cos when i gave her the bottle awhile before she could have went to sleep - then gets a second wind as soon as she hits the cot. im literally standing over the cot for ages putting her back onto a lying position and lightly holding her legs so she can't stand up again until she gives up and falls asleep. she isn't crying, but the whole process can take an hour and hasn't got any easier from day 1. the only positive is she is sleeping a bit better through the night and i think she can fall back to sleep on her own better when she wakes up.

im so tired every night i dread bedtime! then she wakes up at 5ish and i give her milk then, she sometimes goes back to sleep but i never can.

[DuggiWontSleep]

Lucid ? he is 15 months old. The only sleep training we have done to date is getting him into his cot (he used to co-sleep which wasn?t really working for us as he moved around so much).

Basically at the moment I am trying to ensure he has dinner by 5.30, in bath by 6.30, followed by milk and story at 7.00 with aim of bed at 7.30 at the latest. I don?t lift him from cot during night and I have completely stopped night time feeds (will give warm water from tonight though as like you said, he prob does get thirsty). I also no longer bring him into my bed and only feed him once we?ve gone through our ?good morning routine?.

I can totally see my having a breakdown if I were to meet her. I live in the midlands so would have to go Harley Street (quite old school in that I prefer physical face to face contact !). I just can't decide whether seeing Andrea will be worth the money seeing as I am pretty much following her plan. Really don?t know what to do !

[jan2011]

just spent awful time trying to get dd to sleep - now my heads sore and i ended up in tears as its so relentless. when does it start getting any easier? she is 11 months.

[lucidlady]

Deep in teething hell here as well as coming down with colds. Getting DD to bed has been a bit of a battle the last two nights, but she has however slept through until 630 both times (went to sleep about 8).

jan2011 what happens if you don't keep lying her back down but instead just busy yourself pottering around?

duggi how are things? Has he settled any more the last couple of nights?

[lucidlady]

It took me about 2 hours to get DD to settle last night due to teething and a heavy cold but she slept straight through until 6.47am, which was great. Andrea said we need to look again at what exactly I'm doing at bedtime as it really shouldn't be taking this long. I've to give it one more go tonight and then tomorrow she will tell me whether or not I need to make any changes to the routine.

Hope all the other babies are settling down now.

[Yamyoid]

I just wanted to add a word of reassurance. My ds was an awful sleeper and continued to be when I returned to work part-time. However, when he was about 18 months old I went back full-time. After 2 weeks of full-time nursery, he started sleeping through, I think because he was so exhausted (in a good way!).

He is now 5 and still not a great sleeper. A Gro Clock helps but I do wonder if I'd followed a strict sleeping plan, like Andrea Grace, whether he'd be better now.

[jan2011]

currently thats what im trying - not holding her lying down in the cot. she is getting herself more woke up, more hyped, pressing buttons on the mobile pulling the toys off it crawling round the cot standing holding and shaking the bars...is this really the right thing to do? is this wat others do?? im just staying here beside the cot...until she falls asleep but she has never fell asleep by herself before so i don't think it will work.

[lucidlady]

jan2011 it's what mine does! Eventually she tires herself out and goes to sleep. I try to interact with her as little as possible...can take a while sometimes!

[pookypup]

Hi, I've been lurking with great interest in this thread. My 10 month old DS has been steadily getting worse at night time wakings and settling over the past 3 weeks. Inspired by you all I bought the book and am currently on day 4. It's going pretty well, but I've been having the same problems as jan2011 with so much activity in the cot. Last night I kept laying him down, which took 45mins and just seem to wind him up. Tonight I've just let him stand until he sits down on his own. We are at 25 mins and he's laid down. Not asleep yet, but down! This is better. Good luck to everyone doing this tonight.

[lucidlady]

It's tortuous isn't it. Why won't these children just GO TO SLEEP!!!

[jan2011]

you have more patience than me pooky she was crying and crying while standing up and seemed more settled when i helped her lie down so i ended up doing that again and loosly holding her...i let her move about, but just not get up.
yes good luck to you all cos it is so exhausting and takes the energy out of me anyway! a good few nights i end up in tears too with it. ive recently split from my dh so noone to take over!

[pookypup]

Oh jan2011 that must be really tough for you. It's hard work at the best of times, never mind on your own. Sounds like you are doing a really good job. My ds just fights me and gets more upset when I try to keep him down.

35 mins to go to sleep tonight down from 55 last night. It would be lovely if he slept past 5.30am though!

I'm off to get an early night myself, first day back at work tomorrow and who knows what tonight will bring.

[pommedechocolat]

I didn't feed to sleep tonight. She'd accepted a dummy for the first time earlier today so using that and singing she went to sleep in 35 mins. Woke up 30 mins later. Settled with same routine in 2.

I so need some sleep tonight.

Good luck everyone...

[PineappleBed]

How long a story do you read and do you read a whole story or just a few pages?

Girding our loins to start this too...

[lucidlady]

How did it go, everyone?

My DD went over in 25 mins, which is great, so was fast asleep by 8pm. I more or less ignored her after she went into the cot and just pottered about. She shouted for a bit then sang herself to sleep. She then woke up absolutely choked with the cold at 4.15am and couldn't get her back over....zzzzzzz. Today is going to be a long one....

Pineapple I read a storybook - one of the ones with about 10 words on each page. My DD is only 10 months though, so I guess it depends on the age of your DC?

[Bartusmaeus]

Hey everyone

We had a couple of goodish nights recently (co-sleeping, no rolling/crawling/sitting in his sleep and only a couple of wakeups) so I was feeling a bit better but last night was awful again so we've decided to try this method.

First night will be this Wednesday as I work full time and I'm hoping that it'll be 4 bad nights and then better...so I can hopefully sleep at the weekend to catch up...

I have doubts though as DS tends to get hysterical when left in his cot (even if I'm standing right next to it).

I'm actually quite nervous about starting it as I'm so sleep deprived already and I know this will just make me even more tired.

[PineappleBed]

Thanks lucid. Dd is also 10 months, she gets up 3-5 times a night and currently has milk and then cuddle till she's asleep again which takes 30 mins - 2 hours. I also don't want to do cc or co-sleep (as none of us would get any sleep at all!)

I'm a terrible sleeper and don't want her to be the same.

[abadoo]

Place marking to follow this post.

[RillaBlythe]

I'm going to try this. Starting Thursday.

[lucidlady]

Hi all. Thinking about it, DD takes forever to fall asleep if she's not properly tired. I've looked back over my sleep diary for the last couple of weeks and noticed she always falls asleep around 4.5 hours after waking from her last nap, e.g. If she woke up at 3, she'll fall asleep at 7.30. I'm going to try putting her into the cot just before we hit the 4.5 hour mark, and see if that makes any difference. Just need to get her nap details from the childminder now!