We met Andrea Grace - here is the aftermath

[lucidlady]

I've posted several times about my 10 month old DD's appalling night time sleep habits. She woke up roughly every 90 minutes during the night and the only way I could get her back to sleep would be to feed her. She also used to end up in our bed every night as well, and I would then be wide awake from about 3am onwards. I'm back at work FT and the sleep deprivation has been absolute murder.

In desperation, I have read just about every sleep book there is on the market. Controlled crying is not an approach that I am comfortable with, I just cannot stand leaving DD to cry hysterically. It makes my boobs ache and my heart weep. Yes I am a wimp.

Andrea Grace is one of the only books I've read that doesn't immediately promote controlled crying as the only solution. I also read the No Cry Sleep Solution but I have the attention span of a sleep deprived gnat, and I couldn't seem to figure out what I actually had to do. After one particularly awful night where DD screamed from 1am - 5am I announced to DH that I was going to go and see Andrea Grace.

She asks you to keep a sleep diary and send this to her before the appointment. I have been tracking DD's sleep since she was days old so I was able to send her way too much sleep data. DD and I went to see her last week, and in a nutshell, this is what she told us to do:

1. Re-affirm the bedtime routine.
   
2. Cut the nighttime breastfeeds.
   
3. Do not take DD out of her cot into our bed.
   

All sounds great doesn't it? I was more interested in HOW exactly she thought I would achieve this. She said that I should push the bedtime routine back - I was giving the bath far too early. Also, I was to stop DD falling asleep on the boob. Andrea suggested waking her up to read her a story if this happened - the same story needs to be read every night. And then once DD has had her milk and her story, put the light out, say sleepy time (or similar) and pop her in the cot. Once this happens, I am to sit near DD, cuddling and stroking while she is in the cot is allowed but I cannot take her out of the cot again unless she is sick etc. If she wakes in the night, I am to cuddle or stroke her but not lift her out.

Night 1: DD took an hour to settle down to sleep at 8pm. Woke 45 mins later, just needed a quick pat and went back over. Woke again at 1.30am, took an hour to settle back to sleep then slept til 6.40am.

Night 2: Took 22 mins to settle down at 8pm, slept til 2.30am. 20 mins to go to sleep then slept til 3.38am. More or less awake and screaming until 5.09am then slept until woken up at 8.35am.

Night 3 (also known as the worst night of my life): Took an hour to settle from 7.45pm. Woke up at 10.10pm, back over at 10.25 and slept til 2.05am. Absolute hysterics. Back down at 3.10 then awake every hour from 4am onwards for up to 15 mins.

Night 4: An hour to settle from 8pm. Slept until 2am. Back over at 2.07am and then slept until 6.45am...

No doubt I have now jinxed everything but I am feeling much more positive today. I'll update again in a few days.

[peggyblackett]

Oh GEM, you sound as though you're having a rough old time .

I dont have any pearls of wisdom to impart but the way I look at it is that if I don't get it sorted then I end up being an awful mummy - shouty, teary, forgetful and certainly not happy - as that is what sleep deprivation does to me over time. I also have two other dcs to think about. If it helps my ds was a dreadful sleeper, and a very cross, raaarrrrr sort of baby. We did something similar to Andrea Grace - controlled crying for softies (me) and he was sleeping through in no time, and is now a very happy, well sleeping toddler. It was hell for about three nights, but it absolutely got better. That is what is keeping me going. I did find it awful the first night to not offer the boob, as she is an absolute boobaholic.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do :)

[ItsaTIARA]

Oh you poor thing Gem. Personally I do think that 6 months is a bit too young for many babies to understand what's going on and that's why it didn't work. In theory 9 months should normally be more like it.

I think that what I'd personally do would be to go cold turkey in the middle of the night first of all - feed her as much milk as possible in the day, cuddle and reassure for night wakings and offer water in a bottle. But if she's used to that much feeding at night she will probably yell the place down while she gets used to not feeding at night, and it will be very tough at first .

[GEM33]

peggy, yes i totally agree, im not a happy mummy. this sleep thing is taking over my life. im on here every single night (not spending time with dh as he has just commented!) reading these sleep threads.

itsa, yeah, i guess its like me eating something at the same time every night and then not being allowed to have it, my tummy would rumble, i wouldnt be able to sleep, i'd be upset but eventually i would get used to it.

i just read up the reverse cycling thing on kellymom someone mentioned, yes, i have a distractable baby that feeds less in the day now and its a vicious cycle.

i still dont know what to do. i feel weak. i wish she would just start sleeping through by herself. ;-(

[lucidlady]

Evening all!

Wow so many posts. So impressed with pomme pineapple and pooky - seems to be working for you already. Totally at 5 minutes too....

Gem I read your other thread and really feel for you. Sleep deprivation is such a killer. I think you should do whatever it takes to get as much sleep as possible over the next couple of days, so that you're feeling more rested and able to deal with it. Can you co-sleep just for a night or two? That's what I did and then went for it with this technique. I really think this could make a difference to you. A tip that Andrea gave me was to keep talking cheerfully once your DC is in the cot - have a wee potter around the room and be cheerful - your DC will pick up on any tension or stress in your voice. If she is truly upset (and you will know if she's upset or just peed off) them of course you can comfort her. My DD has been a total boob monster since birth and I found it so hard to nightwear but I just kept thinking, teaching her how to sleep is the best thing I can do for her, and that made it easier. My DD reverse cycled too and I thought I was going to die from exhaustion. It was surprisingly easy to get her off the night feeds once I made my mind up that was it - make sure you have some water for her to drink as this helps ease the transition. Stay strong - she will give you a really hard time for the first 2 or 3 nights. Good luck!

Rilla I think the general advice is to address either naps or nighttime but not both together st first. Andrea told me to do whatever it took to get DD to nap, as we were focusing on nighttimes.

chollock how did you get on?

bartus and abadoo the diary is definitely worth it. Once you analyse it you can see definite patterns to their sleep.

It's so good to hear that people have been through this and come out the other side! You're helping me keep going.

Tonight was an earlier bedtime as DD was knackered. Put her down at 1923 and she was just going over when DH arrived home. Cue much shrieking and jumping until she got some daddy cuddles. Thankfully she settled down pretty quickly and was asleep by 8pm, so not too bad all things considered! There has been no real complaining the last two nights, just a last ditch yell and then she sings herself to sleep. She goes to sleep in some very odd positions though...tonight was face down with bum in the air, one leg straight out behind her and the other tucked forward like some bizarre split. Didn't look very comfy but she is still asleep so if it works, I'm not moving her!!

[peggyblackett]

Good luck for tonight everyone. Minipeg is still asleep .

[pommedechocolat]

She's rolling around my bed currently. Not quite to plan. I just can't have her screaming in the middle of the night when she's next to dd1...

Dh woke me up during her stretch of sleep between feed at eleven and three wake up too so am grr with everyone.

Hope everyone else is getting some sleep!

[chollockbops]

Well, night 1 is going brilliantly for DS, who amazingly settled himself in the cot after only 20 mins and has only woken twice (TWICE!) Since and gone back down within minutes. This after nearly a year of co-sleeping and feeding every hour! I'm well aware it won't be like this every night though.

I, On the other hand, have terrible insomnia and have only managed a couple of very broken hours. Oh well...

Gem, please try to be kind to yourself. You're not a failure- it's just that lack of sleep is so hard. I second the opinion that 6 months is really young for any sleep training and that you might have a totally different experience now or in a few months' time. I really sympathise as mine is also a boob monster and a very 'needy' baby. Try to get some rest before starting anything if possible. Co-sleeping is the only way I've been able to survive these last months, do you think that could work for you temporarily?

Another thought is that it might be a bit much to go cold turkey on the night feeds. There's a case study in the Andrea Grace book where the night feeds are gradually withdrawn over a couple of weeks- the key is that you never allow the baby to fall asleep while feeding. This is what I'm trying to do as stopping feeds altogether seemed a bit harsh (I'm a wimp though...). Good luck.

[pookypup]

Gem, I agree with all the excellent advice on here. I'm a massive softy with a DS who had been boob fed and cuddled to sleep at forever. I'd tried the no cry sleep solution for about 2 months with some success but in the last few weeks he had obviously worked something out and would scream as soon as he hit the cot. I'd always said I didn't want him to cry and was really reluctant to try this.

As lucid suggested I gave us all a break and focused on getting some sleep before starting. Ordered the book and read it to give me confidence.

We have been going for a week now and I know this was the right decision for us. I am much calmer because I'm in control again. We have had some hard nights and evenings, particularly a bad Monday night which I think was teething related. However, I can see results now. He took 40 mins to go to sleep and has just slept through until 5.30. Most amazing for me, he has started laying down quietly and seems to understand what he needs to do.

I think being aware of the type of cry is important. He's grumbling now but it is not a panicked distress cry, it's a tired and annoyed at me fuss.

Good luck Gem, with whatever you decide.

[pookypup]

Hello Chollock - how did you get on?

Rilla - book says carry on as normal with naps at first.

[Suchanamateur]

Thanks to Lucid for starting this thread- its inspiring! And congratulations to those who are seeing it through and having progress. Gem - agree with previous posters that what was a disaster at 6mo might be very different a few months later. Certainly true for my DS who we tried to sleep train at 7 months and failed miserably. Tried again at 10 months and pretty much worked in a night. Good luck.

Lucid- did Andrea give advice about overall routines etc as well? My DD will occasionally self settle but just mainly rolls and plays in her cot before each sleep for hours and then gets wildly overtired. Need some help sorting because we're now in crazy overtired spiral.

[BartiiMus]

Argh I have a dilemma.

We had planned on starting gradual withdrawal tonight. But yesterday we saw a stomach specialist for DS' sickness and he thinks it's reflux, and silent reflux at night (the Dr was amazed that DS wakes so often every night. I was surprised at how shocked he was). So we have some new medicine for that.

So, do I still try sleep training or do I hope the medicine works, at least to reduce the number of wakeups so i'm more rested before trying the training...?!

Last night DH and I agreed to give the medicine one week to kick in and try sleep training next week.

But I then had an awful night with Ds up for 2 hours in the night (plus other wakeups) and I'm so tired I'm tempted to try the training tonight. Although I know that when it's evening I'll prefer Ds to go to sleep quickly rather than sitting listening to him crying...

[lucidlady]

Hello everyone.

DD slept through until 5.20am when she woke up starving. I thought this might happen as she'd been so tired last night she refused to eat her dinner properly and just pecked at it. Did the "good morning!" and opened curtains etc despite it being pitch black outside - poor lamb was a little confused. After some milk and a bit of a play she went back to sleep for a little while around 6.30 but then had to be woken up to go to the childminder. I am normally up around 5 anyway so the early waking didn't bother me too much.

She's doing so well - I'm so proud of her!

chollock and peggy how did the rest of your nights go? I think the insomnia is something we all suffer from once the babies start sleeping better - it's like your brain is expecting to have to wake up in a few mins so just puts off going to sleep! Hopefully it is just temporary insomnia and will pass once things are more settled.

pomme Andrea has a case study in her book for a family who had a baby and an older child, don't know whether this would work for you?

pooky sounds like your DS has really got the hang of it!! Such great news.

suchanamateur Do you mean naps etc? Or do you mean the bedtime routine? If your DD is rolling around and not settling, is it possible that bedtime is too early? I mentioned in a post upthread that I'd decided to push DD's bedtime back as there was far too much jumping around going on - I'd been keeping a sleep diary and noticed she was falling asleep at roughly 8pm every night. Seems that I was putting her down too early and she just wasn't tired enough for a 7pm bedtime.

Bartii Good news that the dr is able to help DS. Poor little thing. No wonder he's been up so much in the night. Did you start him on the meds last night? If so, how did it go, was he more settled? If it was me I think I might be inclined to give it a day or two of getting used to the meds and then starting the sleep training because I am a wimp and would be worrying that there was too much change going on. Also, I think you need some rest before starting this because the temptation to just revert to old behaviours when your body is screaming for sleep is just awful. Maybe see how he is tonight and tomorrow then start on Saturday?

[BartiiMus]

Have to give the meds in the morning so started today.

I am a wimp about sleep training. DH is French and has many times said we need to leave DS to CIO (as is standard for the French) but I've refused each time.

I'll see how he sleeps tonight. He spent ages eating in the night too. I thought it might be because he's coming down with a cold or something (some calpol in the night stopped him crying and he slept) but then it turns out he didn't eat much yesterday so i've told my mum to fill him up today!

Sounds like it's a method that could work though. I am scared of the prospect of worse nights at first though.

[lucidlady]

I am the original sleep training wimp so I know exactly how you are feeling Bartii.

I guess the question is, can it really get any worse than it is now? Yes ok so you could have an irritated and annoyed child on your hands for an hour or so but if he then started getting used to going to bed and understood what he needs to do once he's in bed, ie go to sleep and stay asleep, wouldn't that be worth a couple of days of hell? I reckon it's the first 4 nights that are the worst. If you're worried about doing this and then getting up for work the next day, is it possible to book a few days off and then you can rest up again in the daytime?

Fingers crossed the meds are working their magic.

[RillaBlythe]

I really appreciate this thread, Lucid & all others who have shared their wisdom. I am supposed to be starting tonight (I've told you guys & DP!) but am getting cold feet... Last night she went down at 7.30, only woke at 11.30, 4.20 & up at 6am. That is not too bad so maybe I should leave her to it... That's my thought process! But she will be one in a fortnight & two nights ago she was up 5 times. & if I leave it DP will push for CC & I will be too knackered to do anything else (this is what happened with DD1). Argh!

[pommedechocolat]

What meds have you got Barti? I took dd2 off her reflux meds about 2 weeks ago as weaning and sitting up had helped enormously.

I wouldn't avoid sleep training totally but I'd make it very, very gentle. IS his cot raised?

[Suchanamateur]

Thanks Lucid. I meant naps etc routine and overall timings. Bedtime routine is solid but doesn't seem to do us much good. Having seem your trials, I did try a later betime yesterday. She still needed a fair amount o help from me but settled much quicker overall. I just think our whole thing is out of hack and can't see the wood for the trees to put it right. Or be consistent!

[pommedechocolat]

Agree with whoever was talking about type of cry. I also realise that now I rushed in and picked her up at every cry. When I dont she often goes back off almost immediately.

My dd2 is only 6 months by the way... So I finding some comfort int he idea that if it doesnt work it might in a few weeks/months! I feel I have to try now because I am 1. desperate, 2. a bad mummy to dd1 and 3. going to start doing bits of work in the next few weeks.

[ThursdayNextIsMyHero]

Gem, we're going to try this in a couple of nights time, but ds2 wakes to feed at least three or for times a night, so we're going to try something recommended by a friend. The first night, each time they wake for a fed, only feed them for 7 minutes. The next night, only for 6, etc. it's a gradual way of cutting out the night feeds. It worked for them. I'm going to make sure there it's a beaker of water in his room, so I'll see if that helps the tears that are sure to come when I take him of the breast.

[BartiiMus]

pomme

We haven't tilted DS' cot. We did for ages but it made no difference and now he's so active in his sleep that he wouldn't be able to sleep ina tilted cot.

He's been less sick since about 9 months (he's now 11 months) although we started weaning at 5 and he's been sitting unaided since about age 7 months... The only thing that has really made a difference has been walking - he's been walking for nearly a month now and is almost never sick (cross fingers)

The Dr just said it's probably silent reflux at night...

I think I will start introducing a different bedtime routine now (atm he goes to sleep feeding on our bed and I carry him through! I know! Everything we're not meant to do but we haven't always done this, just since he refused to feed sitting on my lap) and gently work up to sleep training.

[tholeon]

Hi all, have been following but never seem to have time to post. Have been training dd, eight months, following lots of this advice with some success, feel lucky though as I think she is relatively adaptable!

But wanted to post to send lots of sympathy to gem, you poor thing, that extent of sleep deprivation is horrible. I wondered whether you could start by trying to get her asleep by any means except boob at bedtime, and then maybe setting rules like no feed before one am, to give her tummy time to adapt. Re emotional damage worries, all I can say was that I was agonising over possible sleep training with my ds, who is three, when he ended up in intensive care for a week, attached to all sorts of wires so I couldn't hear him cry, let alone pick him up. He was five months. Anyway, my point is that he got through that and is fine and seemingly un affected, puts the sleep training stuff in perspective a bit I think. Best of luck, hope things get better for you.

[PineappleBed]

Hi guys, so pleased to hear for some that this is working well - v motivating! DD went down at 7.30 last night like a light as she was knackered from no nap but I did manage (just) to wake her and do the story. She went till 4am when she was up slugging around the cot and occasionally crying until 6am when she went back to sleep and woke at 8am. I think it's working as only waking once is totally amazing! She also doesn't seem to miss milk and is still happy and loving during the day.

I'm just doing naps like I used to - milk and hold on lap till asleep but today it took 5 mins from finishing milk to being asleep enough to transfer to cot and normally it takes 25-40 mins so maybe that's a positive knock-on (or maybe I'm over optimistic from the high of having a stretch of sleep longer than 3 hours).

Fingers crossed for you all for tonight!

[jan2011]

so stressed out after an hour and a half of trying to get dd to sleep.

i have been trying to have her nap in morning and afternoon - but she has a mind of her own - she has different nap routines every day, and when i try to make her nap when she isn't ready she won't! she doesn't sleep very long during the day too. i think she is moving from 2 naps to one around lunchtime that lasts around an hour.

i don't know if i can continue doing this every night unless it gets any easier... the plus is she is sleeping better DURING the night, but getting her to sleep is so difficult and stressful that i honestly don't know if its worth it.

[lucidlady]

Rilla what did you decide to do in the end?

pineapple one waking is amazing! That's very quick progress, you must be delighted. How's it going tonight? Funnily enough DD's childminder told me earlier that naps have become so much easier. She pops her in the cot and she's asleep in minutes. Now I just need to figure out why she doesn't do this at home

tholeon that must have been terrifying with your DS. Great to hear that your DD has taken to this so well!

bartii and pomme how's it going for you? Are the meds helping your DS Bartii?

suchanamateur no Andrea hasn't discussed daytime routines with me in a lot of detail. She reckons that daytime naps fall into place when you get the nighttime sleeping sorted out. We did however talk about the fact that babies have a 90 minute alertness/sleep cycle. DD always gets tired in 90 minute multiples following her last wake up. So for example her morning nap is 90 minutes after waking for the day, then she has her lunchtime nap 3 hours after waking from the morning nap. Not sure if that helps?!

Gem how are you today? How are things with your DD?

I had a very tired DD on my hands again today so thought I should put her down at 715. She fell asleep on the boob and I had to wake her up for the story. Got her into the cot and she lay straight down. Woohoo, I thought. Party time, thought DD. I couldn't believe it. She sprang straight back up and shouted and stomped around until 8pm at which point she just flopped down and went to sleep. New rule in the lucid household: do not put DD in cot before 8pm. Ever.

[lucidlady]

Sorry to hear you're having a rough time jan. What's your routine with your DD? How old is she again?