We met Andrea Grace - here is the aftermath

[lucidlady]

I've posted several times about my 10 month old DD's appalling night time sleep habits. She woke up roughly every 90 minutes during the night and the only way I could get her back to sleep would be to feed her. She also used to end up in our bed every night as well, and I would then be wide awake from about 3am onwards. I'm back at work FT and the sleep deprivation has been absolute murder.

In desperation, I have read just about every sleep book there is on the market. Controlled crying is not an approach that I am comfortable with, I just cannot stand leaving DD to cry hysterically. It makes my boobs ache and my heart weep. Yes I am a wimp.

Andrea Grace is one of the only books I've read that doesn't immediately promote controlled crying as the only solution. I also read the No Cry Sleep Solution but I have the attention span of a sleep deprived gnat, and I couldn't seem to figure out what I actually had to do. After one particularly awful night where DD screamed from 1am - 5am I announced to DH that I was going to go and see Andrea Grace.

She asks you to keep a sleep diary and send this to her before the appointment. I have been tracking DD's sleep since she was days old so I was able to send her way too much sleep data. DD and I went to see her last week, and in a nutshell, this is what she told us to do:

1. Re-affirm the bedtime routine.
   
2. Cut the nighttime breastfeeds.
   
3. Do not take DD out of her cot into our bed.
   

All sounds great doesn't it? I was more interested in HOW exactly she thought I would achieve this. She said that I should push the bedtime routine back - I was giving the bath far too early. Also, I was to stop DD falling asleep on the boob. Andrea suggested waking her up to read her a story if this happened - the same story needs to be read every night. And then once DD has had her milk and her story, put the light out, say sleepy time (or similar) and pop her in the cot. Once this happens, I am to sit near DD, cuddling and stroking while she is in the cot is allowed but I cannot take her out of the cot again unless she is sick etc. If she wakes in the night, I am to cuddle or stroke her but not lift her out.

Night 1: DD took an hour to settle down to sleep at 8pm. Woke 45 mins later, just needed a quick pat and went back over. Woke again at 1.30am, took an hour to settle back to sleep then slept til 6.40am.

Night 2: Took 22 mins to settle down at 8pm, slept til 2.30am. 20 mins to go to sleep then slept til 3.38am. More or less awake and screaming until 5.09am then slept until woken up at 8.35am.

Night 3 (also known as the worst night of my life): Took an hour to settle from 7.45pm. Woke up at 10.10pm, back over at 10.25 and slept til 2.05am. Absolute hysterics. Back down at 3.10 then awake every hour from 4am onwards for up to 15 mins.

Night 4: An hour to settle from 8pm. Slept until 2am. Back over at 2.07am and then slept until 6.45am...

No doubt I have now jinxed everything but I am feeling much more positive today. I'll update again in a few days.

[catellington]

Lambchops that wasn't Andrea Grace. It was Katherine something. Yes rather strong views! 18mo to CIO etc.

[cantthinkofagoodone]

Cassie. Ditch the dummy! It's become a negative sleep prop x

[LambChopsRarePlease]

Wow, just wow. I am aware this is a zombie thread but I have seen this woman on This Morning today.

I was pretty disgusted to be honest.

[CassieF83]

Hi

My son is 7 months and sleeps from 7.30 to 6.30-7 without needing milk or cuddles he is also in his own room and has been since 4 months...HOWEVER he wakes up any where between 1 to 5 times a night crying as he wriggles so much some time when i go in he's upside down in the bed or stuck at the top of his bed diagonal once i move him back in position put his dummy back in and cover him back up he goes straight back to sleep. I know i can not stop him from moving but I need him to stop waking me up as it is sometimes very difficult for me to drift back to sleep as i have to get out of my bed and go into his bedroom. Ive even debated putting his cot back in my room!!! PLEASE HELP!!

[abadoo]

Gem that's great that you're seeing progress, well done! I personally don't think there's any point in starting until you're ready yourself (and have a firm plan in mind), otherwise I've found I just give up in the night and go back to where I started and simply confuse my DS.

We use a sleeping bag and it was definitely better than faffing with tucking in blankets that only get kicked off. The holiday has thrown everything out of the window, as we're only at the cuddle in cot phase and I can't reach him in the travel cot properly, so I've given up and am rocking to sleep but I'll be right back to it once I get back to London.

Have tried cranio ost but not for ages... will be interested to see what others say about this.

Good luck!

[GEM33]

abadoo thats amazing! once a night feed. thats something I can only dream about at the moment!!
Im ashamed to say that, I havent got round to starting the self settling yet. We have had a little progress. in that I have given medicine for reflux and also bought a sleeping bag and this combination seems to have caused a bit longer sleep early on. (still feedling to sleep). also managing to stay in the cot for most of the night. Ive started reading andrea grace book so I'll plough through as quick as i can to get my confidence up.
anyone got positive things to say about cranio osteopathy - im going to take dd for first app next week. we will try anything!!!!

[abadoo]

Gem, inspired by all the posts above (thanks lucid and all the others for the supportive posts), I decided to cut night feeds out slowly in preparation for (eventually) putting DS down awake. He proved surprisingly adaptable and went from waking every 90 mins or so to be boobed to sleep to sleeping up to 4 hours at a time (huge progress in my book) and only feeding once a night - this took 5 days all up . I managed to do this by leaning over him and shushing/singing/vaguely jiggling him as if rocking in his cot and, when he was hysterical a couple of times, getting him out, calming him down then putting back in for more shushing/singing/jiggling.

We're on holiday now so it's all gone down the gurgler till I get back to London next week (crying in a travel cot you can't really soothe properly in (and the need not to wake people in nearby rooms) has meant DS is now developing a rock-to-sleep complex, oh well!) but I will be done with the book by then and the plan is in place to start properly with no night feeds and hopefully DS will get the falling asleep in his cot bit !

[BartiiMus]

jan have you tried pushing bedtime back a bit later?

Or maybe just take a book in with you and let her mess about whilst you read? At least then you've something to take your mind off it?

Can't think of anything else I'm afraid. I always think I've found soething that works and two days later the goalposts have moved!

[BartiiMus]

Oh I feel your pain rainbow ! DS went through (horribly long) phases of waking every hour or less in the night.

DS was walking at 10 months and I really think that his quick physical development (from rolling, to sitting up, to crawling, to standing, to cruising, to walking all in a few months) had a huge negative impact on his sleep.

Have you tried co-sleeping just to get some more sleep or even just rest? I never wanted to co-sleep but found that it actually helped. I didn't sleep much better but just lying down all night was bliss.

Also, DS was rolling all over the place - so when in his cot he'd bump into the sides and wake up. In our bed (DH was relegated to a mattress on DS' floor!) DS could roll a lot further and in fact it meant he woke up less.

I still woke up a fair bit but like I said, could stay lying down which was great.

I can't remember when we started co-sleeping (and it was always part way through the night when I was fed up with getting up all the time and was on my knees with exhaustion) but we did it until DS was about 11 months and last week started this technique.

And it is working (especially at bedtime but not so great in the night yet). However I know for certain this would not have worked any early as he was so active in his sleep. Self-settling wasn't his main problem - it was waking up so often!

Now I can put him down and when he wakes 3, 4, 5 hours later he is still in the same position whereas before whenever he woke up 30, 40, 60 minutes later he was all over the place.

[RainbowBlue]

Oh and she's 8 months now, teething and learning to crawl

[RainbowBlue]

Hello all this sounds like my dd. currently been awake since 1.20am trying to get her back to sleep resorting to sleeping on her floor as she wakes every 45 mins. So tired feel like I'm turning into a monster . Wish she'd sleep as my husbands 3 yr old loud noisy niece will be here at 8 am for the whole day as MIL baby sits her.

I've tried this method and it just doesn't seem to work! She's just regressing even further, tonight ive been trying to get her to sleep since 7.30pm, it's now 3.20 am and she's waking every 45 bloody mins. She used to do this at 4 weeks old

[jan2011]

the thing is she is not crying. she is not really upset, she is more just messing about in the cot and whinging a bit at times. it just takes her ages of getting up and being laid down to finally wind down and go to sleep....she hasn't actually been crying for nights now. she moves about a good bit during the day, but she isn't walking yet and is almost there with it so maybe that will help get more energy out of her

[BartiiMus]

How long does she get upset for? The first night with DS he cried hard for 30 minutes. I so nearly caved but kept repeating to myself the "3 Cs" from AG : "calm, confident and the other one" (I can never remember it )

Now he's going down with only 5 minutes crying but still waking once in the night and for the day at 6am

How much does she move about during the day?

It ma be that she's not ready for this. DS would not have been ready for this even just a month ago.

[jan2011]

don't know why this is taking so long for her to get it. tonight was so difficult too, i took her back downstairs for awhile after the first try, to get her more tired. then she was still hart to get down in the cot. its like she is expecting a mess about in the cot. and if i don't engage at alll with her and just let her do her thing, she gets really upset.

[jan2011]

Its just learning how to deal with it isn't it and to be kind to yourself and take life a bit easier than if you were feeling100% i find. like its ok to just watch a movie all afternoon if ur just shattered! im glad ur in a better place at the minute.

re my dh putting her to sleep - its easier for him as we aren't living together anymore, so she is coming after having a bath at his mums, she falls asleep in the car, and he just transfers her to the cot asleep - done! he never faces her going in awake.

[BartiiMus]

Night 4 was better - yay!
Asleep 10 minutes after I put him in his cot (wide awake after his favourite book) although he did cry quite a lot.

Two wakeups : 2am and 6am then up for the day at 7.20am. both wakeups were quite hard - lots of distressed crying and both times I got him back to sleep (one minute BF then put in cot awake but soothing him) only for him to wake up again 15 minutes later and have to do it again.

Still, a big improvement.

I don't know when or whether to drop the nightfeeds though; I'm kinda hoping he'll just start sleeping through and I won't have to not offer IYSWIM. For the moment I'm still offering as it's over 30 degrees here so I think he's thirsty in the night. I could offer water but he loves water so I don't think that would stop him waking up!

jan as for the tiredness affecting everything and just getting so tired and upset at the thought of bedtimes/night well...to be honest I've been feeling like this since DS was 6 months. I do through phases of dispairing but then it gets slightly better and I feel ok.

Then it goes bad again and I'm crying with exhaustion again. I'm in a fairly good place at the moment as I feel that the bedtimes are a hundred times better and at the weekend I get to have a snooze It's usually at the end of the week that I'm flat out with tiredness.

[GEM33]

barti -i know exactly what you mean, i start off calm and think its not my dd's fault she is upset or wakes when i put her down, she doesnt understand and then after so many times, when you havent had your tea and your knackered, its starts to get really frustrating. you just have to go to a calm place in your head and like someone has said on here before put on a cheery voice. xx
rilla, thats amazing sleep, so what youre saying is that you dont get dd to re settle at nigt, you carry on feeding but the self settling at the start of the night is having an impact on the sleep? thats brilliant.
dd slept in her cot all night last night!! woke up 7 times but i only fed her 3 times and dh rocked her back to sleep in between ... i had the best sleep ive had for ages without her in bed. co sleeping just wasnt working any more for me. which is sad because i love having her close.

[jan2011]

Rilla she is coming 1. my mum has been a great help she comes a few times a week. i am the same as you in that i haven't the courage to do this during the night yet... but actually, i haven't needed to as much as she hasn't woke as much (apart from whe she was teething - but i wouldn't do that to her when she is teething) so it is definately helping with her night wakenings. and i heard someone say that if you feed them around 5 -6 even if they don't really need it, it can help them stay over longer, so i don't mind. and this is working out now cos she is sleeping in!

[RillaBlythe]

How old is your dd Jan? It must be hard with nobody around to give you a break.

Bart 4 years down the line with dd1 & dp has pretty much never done a night waking! Oh well. He does do bedtimes now though.

So I have been putting dd down awake at bedtime the past three nights, & she's settled okay around the 30min mark, no real crying. Haven't had the courage to do it in the night, can't cope with getting any less sleep plus anxious that she still needs the milk..., but last night she went down at 8pm & didn't wake until 5am! Then she went back down till 6.15. So clearly she doesn't need the milk. My boobs were full but not engorged. Amazing. Maybe I will try not feeding her tonight then...

[jan2011]

lucid i think you have a point there - i am ok the first while and then i get more frustrated and she may pick up on this so i ill watch that. thanks gem for the encouragement...im sorry you are so tired at the minute too its so hard sometimes as tiredness affects so much. i hope you get some rest today.

bart that must be so hard doing it all yourself for a year... i really hope you find a way your dh can help more even getting him involved in her bedtimes more or the early wake up. i don't think its fair really for one person to have all that burden especially when she is up 6 times a night! maybe dh could take her today so you can get some kip?

my dd has started sleeping in the past few days! this is unusual. she used to wake up around 6.30 -7 and now its an hour later. i don't mind this, but im up from 6 anyway...in fact sometimes im up from 5 as i fed her at 5 and then couldn't get back to sleep again. perhaps this is cos she is falling asleep later now? she has also changed her daytime naps from 2 to one longer one around just after lunch.

good luck everyone tonight. today dh is taking dd for a few hours. i will be glad just to get some peace and quiet and get the ironing done. :)

[BartiiMus]

Argh. Im sorry to report that night 2 and 3 did not go as planned :-(

Bedtime was easier - only 5 mins crying last night easily distracted by kisses BUT woke 6 times in the night (both nights) sometimes with only 30 mins between wakeups. Its now 6.30 sunday and hes babbling away in the cot next to me. I cant decide whether to get him up or see if he'll fall asleep again. Its still dark outside :-(

Am hoping its teething causing the wakeups as he was unusually grouchy all day yesterday. Calpol hasnt seemed to do much though.

DH has decamped to the living room so one of us at least can have a decent sleep. I really hope this method works eventually as id like DH to take over some of the bedtimes and maybe night wakings. Nearly 12 months old and I've done them all!

[GEM33]

jan, sounds like you are doing amazing especially as your without dh. and yes, typical that he got it easy. i think men dont worry about things half as much as we do and their laid back approach rubs off to the kids.

barti- omg, im at the sleeping problem stage now too. even though im totally exhausted, and when dd is asleep, i lie there awake dreading the next wake up etc. i am going to buy this a/g book i think.

im up to speed with everyone now! purely down to the fact that lots of you are making progress Im going to try this. dh and i have formulated a plan.

so, we have been co sleeping for 9 months now. We did move the cot to the side of the bed after dd grew out of the proper co sleeper bed 2 months ago but we found that the only person actually in the cot was half of my body and my pillows because dd was spread eagled in the middle of our superking size bed!!
so weve put the side back on and moved the cot away from the bed. we are going to carry on feeding to sleep but make sure that every single time we are putting her in the cot. also we are going to stop giving boob every single time she wakes up. i'll feed her every 2-3 hours and dh has said he will rock her back to sleep inbetween so as to cut down the amount of boob without too much distress.
then in a few days-hopefully she'll be more used to the cot and bit less boob, we'll start properly to do this a/g thing of putting her in the cot and leaving her to it to self settle and we'll try giving water instead of boob.
Ive had to promise dh that i wont lose the plot at night and give in. i'll keep you posted!
lucid, do you think that now your dd is sleeping more in the night its brought about earlier wakings?

[lucidlady]

Hugs to you too jan. What happened in the end, how did she go to sleep? Do you think she might be picking up on your frustration? I know my DD was which is why Andrea kept telling me to be cheerful and upbeat when talking to her.

It does get easier, I promise. Do you have anyone who can give you a break in the daytime?

[jan2011]

another bad night here too and also im sat in tears cos my ex has upset me. hugs lucid your night sounds rough. i think i will try to have the bath later and maybe try putting her in later. i let her do her own thing for awhil in the cot tonight for awhile and it was easier for me, but she did just wind herself up...
its so difficult all this. please someone tell us it gets easier soon!