We met Andrea Grace - here is the aftermath

[lucidlady]

I've posted several times about my 10 month old DD's appalling night time sleep habits. She woke up roughly every 90 minutes during the night and the only way I could get her back to sleep would be to feed her. She also used to end up in our bed every night as well, and I would then be wide awake from about 3am onwards. I'm back at work FT and the sleep deprivation has been absolute murder.

In desperation, I have read just about every sleep book there is on the market. Controlled crying is not an approach that I am comfortable with, I just cannot stand leaving DD to cry hysterically. It makes my boobs ache and my heart weep. Yes I am a wimp.

Andrea Grace is one of the only books I've read that doesn't immediately promote controlled crying as the only solution. I also read the No Cry Sleep Solution but I have the attention span of a sleep deprived gnat, and I couldn't seem to figure out what I actually had to do. After one particularly awful night where DD screamed from 1am - 5am I announced to DH that I was going to go and see Andrea Grace.

She asks you to keep a sleep diary and send this to her before the appointment. I have been tracking DD's sleep since she was days old so I was able to send her way too much sleep data. DD and I went to see her last week, and in a nutshell, this is what she told us to do:

1. Re-affirm the bedtime routine.
   
2. Cut the nighttime breastfeeds.
   
3. Do not take DD out of her cot into our bed.
   

All sounds great doesn't it? I was more interested in HOW exactly she thought I would achieve this. She said that I should push the bedtime routine back - I was giving the bath far too early. Also, I was to stop DD falling asleep on the boob. Andrea suggested waking her up to read her a story if this happened - the same story needs to be read every night. And then once DD has had her milk and her story, put the light out, say sleepy time (or similar) and pop her in the cot. Once this happens, I am to sit near DD, cuddling and stroking while she is in the cot is allowed but I cannot take her out of the cot again unless she is sick etc. If she wakes in the night, I am to cuddle or stroke her but not lift her out.

Night 1: DD took an hour to settle down to sleep at 8pm. Woke 45 mins later, just needed a quick pat and went back over. Woke again at 1.30am, took an hour to settle back to sleep then slept til 6.40am.

Night 2: Took 22 mins to settle down at 8pm, slept til 2.30am. 20 mins to go to sleep then slept til 3.38am. More or less awake and screaming until 5.09am then slept until woken up at 8.35am.

Night 3 (also known as the worst night of my life): Took an hour to settle from 7.45pm. Woke up at 10.10pm, back over at 10.25 and slept til 2.05am. Absolute hysterics. Back down at 3.10 then awake every hour from 4am onwards for up to 15 mins.

Night 4: An hour to settle from 8pm. Slept until 2am. Back over at 2.07am and then slept until 6.45am...

No doubt I have now jinxed everything but I am feeling much more positive today. I'll update again in a few days.

[DisorderlyNights]

Y'know, this all seems like an awful lot of work. I'm sure for some of you it's the only way that suits your family for specific reasons, but others of you may be better considering co-sleeping. Then, they get boob and are content, and you don't have to get out of bed in the night OR give up
evenings to patting their backs as they cry. (And no, it won't mean the child will never sleep in their own bed, mine have all transferred happily to a cot and slept through the night at around the same age as they've started walking.)

[drcrab]

I'm afraid I'm too late for this!! My dd is nearly 2!! And we are still co-sleeping. And she's still on the boob. And I went back to work 1.5 years ago. Help!!!

[DisorderlyNights]

Why the sad face about all that though drcrab? Getting a child sleeping through the night isn't a race, or a competency test.

The child and the whole family getting enough sleep is of course crucial, but this can happen in ways other than child asleep
In cot in one room, parents in the other.

[drcrab]

I'm not getting enough sleep for one. Im proud for having fed both kids to 2 years but it's really taken a toll on me in terms of sleep... I feel v sleep deprived. I'm v grouchy. I feel the weight of the world on me (various other issues). Feel the h isn't supporting me in getting child to stop bf etcetc.

I blame it all on sleep. Or lack of.

[pommedechocolat]

But how do you do the crying when you have a toddler asleep in the room next door?!

All sleep/baby advice is for having just one...

[drcrab]

Pommed - yes how does one do that!!!

[DisorderlyNights]

Agree pommedechocolat. I did a little sleep
training type stuff with my first, but my time DC2 was born I realised was impossible, and co slept.

Drcrab, it is tough if you're not sleeping enough. Do you have to wake properly for the night feeds, or is your child a wriggler? I only wake lightly at start of each feed in the night, then go straight back to sleep, so co-sleeping suits me.

[TheHeirOfSlytherin]

I would love to co sleep but ds doesn't understand that he actually needs to sleep in our bed, not bounce on it, spend all night looking out the window and handing me the contents of every draw and shelf in the room while I do that "not quite asleep but not quite awake" thing I got so good at when he was a baby.

It's been the same way since he could crawl. He needs a dark, quiet room he can be alone in to get to sleep.

I reserve co sleeping for hotels/caravans now - on holiday next week so should be fun

[runnervt]

My older dc don't really wake up even though they're in the next room. I'm not sure if they're particularly heavy sleepers or whether they're just used to crying.
The other night I was in ds1's room and he was asleep in bed when dd started screaming in the next room - he did put his hands over his ears in his sleep so maybe that's the secret! He certainly didn't wake properly as we would definitely have known about that!

[pommedechocolat]

We do bits of co sleeping here when it gets bad. Dh in spare room though. Would prefer to co sleep with him rather than raspberry blowing boob obsessed baby tbh.

[Devora]

I used Andrea Grace 6 years ago. She was great.

[bigkidsdidit]

DS never would co sleep, he'd bounce and poke his fingers I my eyes and sing to me

Obviously everyone should do what suits them and their families - there isn't a single solution. This one doesn't involve crying just muttering (or that's the way it was for us) - it is not CIO

And it only took Inthink two weeks for us until DS slept 6-8 hours and a month later he was sleeping 12, with no more interventions, it was just jay sleep bred sleep. In the scheme of things a few weeks is nothing - I reckon if we were co sleeping he would still be waking up now

It worked brilliantly for us and we are all very very happy. If co sleeping makes you all happy, I am glad for you :)

[shelley72]

I opened this thread thinking it might help with getting dd 2.3 out of our bed painlessly, but it looks as though it still involves allowing them to cry (even with you in the room)? Dd can scream the place down when she chooses, and has done the minute I even think about trying to place her in her own bed. Can't let her do that - would wake her brother and rest of street!

So we are stuck with co sleeping, at least she has mostly stopped the night feeds now - just need to sort out how to stop her fidgeting all night now.
I suppose one day she will sleep in her own bed?!

[princelypurpleparrot]

I am watching this with so much interest as I am desperate for DS2 to sleep for longer. He's 10mo, walking, but still wakes every two hours through the night and will only be fed back to sleep . He's still in our room at the moment (in a cot) but I plan to have his room ready next week, and once he's in there I want to do some sleep training.

I hate the idea of CC / CIO but thought I was probably going to have to go in that direction but this sounds much more positive.

Having said that, I do feel a bit bad about the idea of cutting out night feeds altogether as I worry he still needs them (cosleeping does not work for us, I can't settle so sleep less if he's in my bed unfortunately).

OP I hope it keeps working for you

[memememum]

Hi Lucid, please could I ask. When you say 'she took 1 hr/22 mins/however long to settle down in her cot' would she be crying during that time and how badly? Thanks.

[Devora]

I really didn't want to do controlled crying, and didn't. Andrea Grace explained to me that there is no way you can wean a baby off her usual getting-to-sleep habits without making her cross. So crying is probably unavoidable. However, if you are sitting with them, how distressed can they get, really? For me this made all the difference: I really didn't want to traumatise my child, but felt ok about her getting grouchy if she could see, hear and feel me.

Andrea told me that controlled crying at this age usually works within 2 days, her method takes 4. My dd was putting herself to sleep and sleeping through by day 3, with actually very little crying on nights 1 and 2. It worked wonderfully well for us.

[lucidlady]

Morning all

duggi how was your night? We had one waking, at 11.30. Bit of water and she went back over - she's still asleep now.

disorderly I tried co-sleeping but it just didn't work for us. DD would quite happily have slept with my boob in her mouth all night (and frequently tried to do so). I just didn't sleep properly at all - I was permanently half awake. This way, yes I am getting up but in between I'm getting the deep sleep that I need. It's making such a difference - I was becoming a danger to others trough lack of sleep. I wasn't alert enough for work, for driving etc. I wish I could have made co-sleeping work for us as I do love my baby snuggling into me, but unfortunately it wasn't to be. I have to say ive also seen a change in DD since she started sleeping better - she's even more of a minx, constantly on the go and on the lookout for trouble [proudmummy emoticon].

For those of you asking about the crying, I feel the same about CC/CIO. I've read too much research about the impact on the developing brain and baby's stress levels. I believe there has also been research that shows crying in the presence of a caregiver, who is actively comforting baby, does not lead to the same cortisol issues. On phone so can't link. DD did cry - she was not happy at all to be in the cot on the first 3 nights (forget who mentioned the last ditch attempt on 3rd night but SO TRUE) but since then, she gets in the cot, sings and chats to herself and waves at me. She is very clearly not distressed. As devora and bigkids hae said, she was crying more from anger than distress. That's not to say she spent the whole settling down time crying - it was a mix of crying, shouting, blowing raspberries and giggling. Now, settling down mainly involves singing and blowing raspberries...

[lucidlady]

No idea what to do when theres more than one child mind you . There is a section on this in the book I think, but I didn't read it...

[tholeon]

Following with interest as trying to sleep train my eight month old! We used to co sleep but it stopped working well for us. When dh is not around to sort out my three year old I park him in front of the tv while getting baby to settle. Not ideal when she is nearly asleep and we get interrupted by noisy complaints about advert breaks or needs to go to the loo but needs much..

Things are working, she only woke once last night and got back easily. I did feed her though as she was lastly hungry and is still quite little.. She was waking every hour or two when we slepttogethrt..

[tholeon]

Hmm, apologies for huge amounts of typos and hope that makes a teeny bit of sense.. Trying to do too many things at once..

[Bartusmaeus]

This is interesting. DS is 11 months and an awful sleeper. I used to think it was because he wanted to BF every time he woke up (which is frequently) but the last few nights we've co-slept and I've discovered that

a) he's mainly waking up because he rolls/sits up/crawls in his sleep and when he hits his cot bars or wakes up anyway he freaks out and needs comforting (i.e. boob) to go back to sleep

b) when sleeping in our bed (with just me not DH) he has enough space to roll about but then go back to sleep by himself without the boob (woo hoo!). The problem is that I still don't sleep well because he cries whilst rolling/sitting up etc. plus I get kicked in the night.

We've tried CC (a bit, I caved as I hated hearing him so hysterical) and we've tried me just sitting in the same room as him but he is hysterical that I'm there but not picking him up.

Has anyone else found that?

[DuggiWontSleep]

Lucid - Omg omg omg - dont want to jinx it but he went to bed at 7.15 and woke at 5.30 !! I then patted him back to sleep and he slept until 6 at which point I opened the curtains in his room, said good morning and took him downstairs for his milk.

He did however keep yawning when he woke - is this what you (or others) have experienced?

Also his feet were freezing on waking - can anybody recommend some good bed socks for a 15 month old boy?

Really hope this wasnt a one off.

Btw - I love you Lucid !! :-)

[icravecheese]

bartusmaeus - your DS sounds identical to my DD!! When I latch her on, she doesnt even bother to suck at night - its purely comfort, just having a boob in her mouth! plus I too have found the going into my DD and sitting by her cot & just patting / stroking her through the bars actually makes her scream even more than if I just left her to cry it out. Me being in there with her seems to upset her even more.

Last night I put DD to bed at 5.30pm (she had napped for only 1/2 hour all day, so was exhausted). Between 5.30pm and 10.30pm she woke every 40mins-1hr and, well....grizzled, not really a cry (certainly not hysterical) just loud angry singing. So I left her to it - I knew that if I went in, she would get seriously cross that i wasnt picking her up. Eventually she went off at 10.30pm and slept til 1.30am, woke up for a while & did the same, then went back off til 5.30pm, when I deemed it ok to be 'morning' time (now falling asleep infront of TV having been up and chirpy since 5.30am!!).

I don't think there is any miracle answer to sleep problems / training. My middle child didnt sleep through til 3yrs old....arghhhh!! But my first born slept like a dream from day 1.

[lucidlady]

duggi that is awesome!!!! Fingers crossed this continues! You must feel great after finally getting some rest!

tholeon I've found DD is sleeping better since we stopped co-sleeping too. At the end of the day, all babies are different and what works for some families doesn't work for others.

bartusmaeus and icravecheese have you tried distracting them mid-hysteria? I have a couple of cuddly toys that I keep aside for this reason. DD fell asleep on the boob tonight and was not happy to be woken up before going in the cot. She had a full blown tantrum and managed to get her pyjamas off and her nappy . I ended up dressing her again in the cot and distracting her with a teddy. She fell asleep within minutes.

DD went down at 715 tonight after a 40 minute tantrum/whining session. She wasn't crying, just making those annoyed noises. For some reason I'm expecting tonight to be a bit difficult, not sure why, just instinct. Hopefully I will be proved wrong...

[DuggiWontSleep]

Lucid-like you, i too had a feeling that tonight wasn't going to be a good night. Put DS down at 8 and so far he's woken at 12, 4 and 4.15.

He only drank half of his bedtime milk as had dinner late so I think he must be hungry. Really wanted to give him some milk but have resisted.

I'm so tired :(