Sleep Nightmares Part III: At 3am No-One Can Hear You Scream

[CountBapula]

I've been moaning about documenting my 8 mo DS's 'challenging' sleep patterns on MN since he was three weeks old. He's still waking every 2-3 hours at least and the other thread's full, so here's a shiny new one for all you parents of hardcore sleep refusenik babies.

Who's with me?

Hello everyone, haven't been around for a while and just been catching up on the thread.

Really interesting to read about the gradual withdrawal attempts going on at the moment. I think that is the road we need to go down but DD has chicken pox so everything is on hold. She had a spot on the end of her tongue so didn't eat or drink anything for two days :( but today has managed to spill coffee on the cream carpet and pull all the clothes off the drying rack so she's obviously feeling much better!

At the moment I'm co-sleeping and she's feeding every couple of hours or so. I'm wondering whether I should be getting her used to sleeping in the cot all night? Does anyone think that co-sleeping encourages night feeds?

We've just got a new sling and she loves going to sleep in it. In fact, I've just put her down for a nap by getting her to sleep in the sling. I would have left her in it but I was reading this thread at the time so I have put her in cot

I think I actually need a plan of what I'm doing and how but I literally don't know where to start with it.

Oh, and to the 'rod for your own back' comment above - I put that in the same category as 'baby brain' - stupid phrases that don't actually mean anything

Judy thanks, I will. I'll phone now and make an appointment. This has gone on long enough! Good to know you can mix it with water and syringe it - I was put off by the thought of it being a faff involving expressing or getting formula or something.

9.30 Monday!

Going really well here still :)

DD is still waking at least once about 30 minutes after going to sleep and then sometimes again between 11 (dream feed) and 6am. Actually feeling quite human though which is new. She's now going to sleep without me touching her but just going shhhh. Next step is either to sit there without saying anything or moving closer to the door and saying shhh or just walking out and going back in when she cries - which is probably a bit too CC for me.

Missrose IME, yes co-sleeping encouraged night feeds. She would wake and feed even if she had happily gone through the night without feeding before. Though I think that's partly because I would just stick her on to get us back to sleep faster.

Dontshoot I would second visiting the dr.

Things are still going pretty well for us too. DS is settling ok at night with us sitting outside the door shushing. This morning he even "slept in" until 5.15am with only one wake up around 9pm. We kept him up a little later than usual so we might gradually make bedtime a bit later and see if that helps with the 4am morning wake ups.
Naps, however, are not going well. If I try to put him down he just sits up and screams and screams. I've gone back to feeding him to sleep which is definitely not on the Millpond plan! It doesn't seem like a good idea when he's starting nursery next week as well. He had a half day settle this week and they managed to get him to have a 30 minute nap in a cot which is reassuring. Apparently he cried a little then went to sleep.
Hope everyone else is doing ok. Hope the doctor appointment goes ok dontshoot. I have read on here that some GP's are sceptical of reflux but found that mine was really nice.

Hi all. Things have gone to pot here. We got back from Wales and spent a couple of days trying to get DS back on track, but yesterday he started acting really clingy and crying loads, and was up every two hours last night screaming. Think he might be teething :(

I am really interested in gradual withdrawal too. DS has never gone to sleep without us touching him (unless in the car or buggy). We really need to crack this because he starts with the CM soon and she hasn't got time to spend ages rocking him to sleep, picking him up, putting him down etc. I managed a couple of times this week to settle him in the cot at naptime (though I had to practically lie on top of him to do it) - he did cry but only for five minutes or so. Tried to do it just now and he screamed blue murder :(

I know you've all explained this before or elsewhere, but could someone take me through the stages they used to get away from the cot/outside the door? The thing is with DS I don't understand how you move from one stage to the next without getting 'stuck' IYSWIM. I can sometimes get DS to fall asleep by lying him down repeatedly and shushing with a hand on his chest/back but don't think he'd let me get to the next step without screaming the place down. Also, he changes so frequently in what he wants/needs to go to sleep that it's almost impossible to be consistent

It?s been mixed here. Gradual withdrawal has gone down the pan, he is back to needing patting to sleep. He has been really struggling to settle and it?s been taking ages and we?ve had a couple of weeks of at least 2 night wakings, then suddenly last night he slept through (well till 5 but I count that, especially as he went back to sleep till 7).

count if he can?t go to sleep without you touching him, in my mind he?s not ready for the next stage. I didn?t start moving away from the cot till DS had gone to sleep with no intervention from me (other than sitting in the chair next to the cot) for 7 days. Even then, the first time I tried it he got upset so I went and sat back in the chair, but the next night he was fine with it.

count for me the hardest step was moving to not touching DS in the cot. When I first tried it he just wouldn't accept it and was crying really hard. What worked for me was to sit right next to the cot on the floor and let DS touch my face through the bars. This seemed to calm him and after a few nights I was able to sit there and he didn't touch me.
Once he was used to falling asleep without touch it was ok to move away. Some nights he did cry but not for ages and not really hard.

We're not managing to sit outside the room every night - if he is crying really hard I go back in the room and he's a bit calmer. I figure we'll get there eventually and don't want to push it too hard as it seems a fine line between that and CIO.

The worst thing for us was getting her in the cot and then not touching her. Honestly though, her sleep is getting better and better now that I'm only indirectly (by sitting in a chair next to her and saying shhh) getting her to sleep.

I always knew DD was ready for the next step because she started to rely on whatever step we were on. So the first step was her falling asleep on my lap with me patting her chest. When she started waking more at night and when I couldn't take her off my chest without waking her I knew it was time for the next step. It usually happened 3 - 4 days after I introduced whatever step we were on.

DD is now refusing to have more than half of her first bottle. Not sure if it's because she isn't into the new formula (I had to get the follow on 6month+ stuff as they didn't have any more of the 0+ stuff at my local shop and it was the day before the flight back here) or because she isn't hungry.

Going to start night weaning tonight. Dreading messing with her routine though!

For the first time ever ever DS2 went to sleep in his bed with me just lying next to him. He can settle himself for naps but never has he ever managed it at night. Woo hoo!

Won't speak too soon though as he's teething and undoubtably will wake before I go to bed.

Well DS is still struggling to get to sleep at night, it is like he can?t get comfortable, he tosses and turns and then ends up crashing out in a stupid position ? usually on his face with his bum in the air. However, he does seem to be more consistently sleeping for longer periods, the last few nights he?s only woken at 4. I am hoping the night weaning is starting to work.

Hanbee, DS settles himself for naps too, but not so good at night. How did the rest of the night go?

How is the night weaning going Cosmosis and ConradeJing? Hope your night was ok in the end Hanbee.
DS is still settling well and sleeping well for most of the night but we can't seem to do anything about the early mornings. Most days he is waking at 4.15am and won't go back to sleep. We've tried sitting outside the door shushing, sitting inside the room shushing and sitting next to the cot with a hand on him and he just screams and screams. He's really tired though and I don't think he is getting enough sleep. We tried moving his bedtime later and it seemed to work for a couple of days but then we were back to the 4.15am again. It's causing arguments between DH and me now as I am more keen on a soft approach while he thinks we'll undo everything we've worked on for the last 3 months if we don't stay with the plan.
We spoke to the sleep consultant for the last time and she said we would have to do CC but we could stop at however minutes we felt comfortable with. I tried this morning but couldn't get past 2 minutes and once it got to 5am I just got him up. I could hear him retching in the cot he was crying so hard and I just feel so conflicted and a bit wretched about it all. I fed him when I got him up which DH thinks is wrong but he was still quite upset from all the crying . We've taken so long using this really gentle approach to get him to sleep and are now doing CC anyway. I'm back to work on Monday though and I just don't think I can cope with such early mornings every day. We can't get him up at 4.15am every day either and he screams if he is in the cot (though only on and off if I am stroking him).
It's been like this since I dropped the last feed (before I would feed him around that time and then he'd maybe sleep for another 30 minutes) but I don't think he is hungry as he's quite happy to play for an hour and wait for milk/breakfast at 6am.
Sorry for the long post but just wanted to pour it out. The consultant said we should try the CC for a week but after this morning I don't know if I could do it again. My instinct is to try and take DS to our bed when he wakes but DH is not keen and I'm not sure it would work anyway. Any contact with us seems to make him more awake. My only hope is that he's so tired from nursery that he starts to sleep longer. I thought the longer nights would help but he doesn't seem to care that it's pitch black outside! Anyone think PUPD would be a better option?

I haven't read the whole thread just the last three pages but I so need to be here... DD is seven and a half months and has only given me one 5 hour block ever. We got to a stage where she was only waking at 10, 2 and 4.30 but teething has thrown that out of the window again.

A more usual night is down at 6.45 or so, up at 8.30, 10, 11.30, 1, 2.30, 4, 5, 6.30. Writing it down makes me realise how bad that sounds, and that's typical, not a particularly bad night!

I have let it get to the point where boob is the only thing that settles her, and I don't know how to get out of that situation. I do it because it is quick and easy and I am exhausted. I have bought NCSS and will start reading when I get a moment, but will be watching here for helpful advice. DH seems to think we are the only ones with a baby like this, thank heavens we're not!

Well I feel even more crap. Just picked DS up from nursery and he had a huge bruise on his forehead from where he fell over earlier in the day (they did phone and warn me but it was bigger than I was expecting). As soon as I picked him up I realised he had a dirty nappy so I told the staff and they said I could change it there - he was crying loads when I did and his bum was really red. They then talked me through his day and they had put him down for a nap from 4.15pm to 5pm which is really late for him and made me worry he was sleepy because of hitting his head. Also, his chin was covered in food as they hadn't cleaned him properly after snack (or possibly lunch). It's all minor stuff that can happen but it ust made me feel awful that he wasn't get the one on one care I can give him. I really like the nursery and I tried not to be too grumpy but it's shaken my confidence a bit.
Upshot is that I've told DH we're not doing CC just now as I think it's too much to do at the same time as starting nursery. We really need to get him sleeping later - even 5am would be ok. Suggestions more than welcome.....

Welcome toomuchteaching - I remember nights like that well... It's amazing really that now all I have to moan about is early wakings. It can get better! gradual retreat and night weaning by reducing feed time by a minute or so every couple of nights helped us.

Oh no judy, that must've been awful :( hope things improve.

Hello all. Just caught up a bit and seems it's still a mixed bag sleepwise for most of us, just for a change. Welcome and sympathies to the newbies.

Well, I made a surprising discovery earlier this week. I'm not sure how I feel about it though

I was battling to get DS down for his morning nap. I'd fed him and he'd slept for precisely three minutes before waking and crying. I tried feeding again - no dice. Tried rocking him but he was squirming and arching his back. I got so stressed out by the whole thing that I had to just put him in his cot and leave the room to calm down a bit.

I went downstairs to get a drink of water. I could hear DS screaming in his cot :( I took a few deep breaths and drank my water. Then on the way up the stairs I noticed that DS's cries had subsided a bit and there were gaps of several seconds between them. I waited a minute or so and the crying turned to grizzling - it sounded just like when he wakes in the night and goes back to sleep. So I left him a bit longer. Then silence. I gave it five minutes and peeked in - he was asleep and he'd cried for less than 15 minutes total.

Compare that to four days earlier when I'd tried to settle him for his nap in the cot by patting, cuddling, shushing etc and he'd screamed for nearly an hour before I gave up and rocked him.

So I tried again with the afternoon nap. He screamed his head off for two minutes, burbled for one minute, then went to sleep

I've since done this for most naps this week, and on a couple of night wakings when he's not gone off after a feed, and it's usually been 3-5 mins of screaming before conking out. On one or two occasions, I've gone in after 5 mins and out again, CC-style, but I've never had to do that more than once, because he's always asleep in less than 10 minutes.

Obviously I don't feel great about this. But for the last couple of weeks, feeding has been far less effective, and rocking, shushing, patting suddenly seems to just piss him off because he starts yelling and struggling when I try it. He also needs to start settling quicker because the CM has other kids to look after.

I hope you don't all hate me for this but what I'm trying to say is I've basically started doing CC for naps

I'm hoping that he'll eventually stop the screaming bit at the beginning because it's horrible :( but I've read (eg on the Moxie blog) that some babies just need to blow off a bit of steam before they fall asleep. He never used to be like that - he'd work himself into a right state and cry for ages - but it does seem that, for the moment, anyway, he needs to cry to release tension.

Sorry for the essay - am I terrible? :(

NOT AT ALL TERRIBLE COUNT!

Sorry for shouting but you are not terrible!

I had a similar realisation when I was walking/rocking DD to sleep. I was doing something that was taking ages to work and was making us both miserable. So now she goes to sleep and tbh it's rarely without some form of protest shout but at least I'm sitting down and I'm not involved with her going to sleep. Honestly, if he is getting more sleep because of it then don't worry. If he doesn't want you to touch him as he goes to sleep then you are doing the right thing.

Judy we're only on the 2nd night of nightweaning but so far it is going well. I'm following my GPs suggestion of feeding 30 mins earlier and lowering the amount of liquid she has every 3 days. So before she had 220ml at 11pm, now it's 180ml at 10:30, tomorrow it will be around 150ml (can't remember exactly how many ml next, whatever it says on the tin for 5 scoops of powder) at 10:00. Then when you have done 3 days at 9pm you go cold turkey and don't offer anything else.

Last night she didn't wake up at all after her dream feed where as the night before (first night) she woke up lots but she did wake at 6:20 where as before she was waking at 7:40.

Really feel for those of you still having problems and the newbies. Would post individual replies but DD is bloody awake after a 20 minute nap ffs.

Joining the thread has clearly worked! Yesterday I was up at 9.15 for the second time since her going down at 7, so I threw NCSS at DH. I came down and he had read the introduction and said it sounded like it might be good.

She next woke up at 10.35, I had gone to bed. I threw the duvet off but as I sat up I realised she had changed to grumbling and the funny noise she makes when going to sleep (I can only descirbe it as a kind of grinder noise in her throat) I went back to sleep, she woke again around 12, settled herself... I didn't have to go into her room until 2.10!! Amazing. Then she woke another time but self settled, so nothing until 5.20, and then she stayed asleep until around 8. I have never had a night like it. I can only assume that either this thread, or the introductory chapter to NCSS has magical powers.

On a serious note, what is so irritating is that it doesn't mean a thing, it doesn't mean she'll do it again tonight, I could be up every hour again. It drives me mad that there doesn't seem to be any pattern, but I will keep my fingers crossed that it is somehow the start of something. Needless to say I am trying to replicate everything about the day... omelette for tea anyone!?

Sorry about you DS's day at nursery Judy, that does sound upsetting. And glad you've made some progress Count, a little bit of grumbling does no harm at all, if it leads to more sleep all round.

Count - that's amazing! Maybe with every nap he will cry a little less as he gets more used to it. Also, going to the childminder's may help him to learn new getting-to-sleep techniques that might not come up at home. My dd often cries before falling asleep. Weirdly, I'm fine with it if she's in the buggy or sling or I'm holding her but I can't bear it if she's in the cot! It seems to last so long and she holds her arms up to me and I'm such a bloody pushover caring mum I always end up picking her up. If it's working go with it I reckon. If he's fine when he wakes up he's obviously not suffering.

DD is now only waking twice a night and I'm still feeding her but have really cut down on the length of feeds. I need to day-wean first in preparation for returning to work. We're down to two bfs in the day and I'm going to drop one of them at the weekend, the other one the following weekend and once she's got used to that I'll start on the night feeds. ComradeJing and Cosmosis I'll be following your night weaning adventures closely!

Toomuchteaching Hope you have a repeat of last night. I know exactly what you mean by 'grinder noise in throat' as my dd does the same thing but in the middle of her feeds!

count hope you're not still feeling bad - it sounds completely reasonable winding down crying to me. We're kind of doing that now that we're outside the room shushing - DS cries for up to 10 minutes normally but not normally very hard.
I'm beating myself up about trying CC yesterday morning even if it was just for half an hour and only 2 minute intervals. DS has been quite ill today - streaming nose and really gunked up eyes. He went to sleep really easily but then woke up screaming and I just could not calm him. I went into the room and shushed him rather than staying outside since he was ill but he was just getting more and more upset. I tried stroking and cuddling in the cot and eventually got him up. I tried to get him back to sleep by lying on the floor next to the cot with my hand in the cot where he could reach it and he would fall asleep and then wake up crying again minutes later. In the end I fed him to sleep as I didn't know what else to do. DH is getting stressed we're going backwards and I'm a bit nervous about the night. I think all bets are off when they are ill though.
I feel really crap about the CC - I don't know what I was thinking. The sleep consultant made it sound so easy and necessary and we are a bit desperate for him to sleep longer (for his sake as well and he's just tired all the time). I think once he gets better we'll get back on track and hopefully he'll just grow out of it.....
I think we've got to expect some problems with all the changes going on - him starting nursery and me going back to work. I'm a bit surprised about how emotional I'm feeling about it all. He seems so small and nursery does seem impersonal. It is a really nice place and all the stuff I was annoyed about yesterday could easily happen to me. If it happens every day obviously it'll be a problem but I think I was looking for things yesterday because I was upset about him falling.
Eurgh! Must go to bed and try and get some sleep. Hope everyone else is getting on ok.

Well we had 7-6.35 last night Good timing too as have had ridiculous week at work.

count you are not terrible at all! We generally leave him for a bit now when he starts crying because often he stops on his own ? even when he sounds really upset. We found that out in exactly the same way ? he was really fighting, and he can get proper violent when he?s like that as well! So put him down and left the room to calm down. Sleep happened!! It doesn?t always work though.

I was actually really pleased the other night as my parents were staying, and they have previously been very much, oh just leave him to cry it didn?t do you any harm, kind of people. Well he woke up at 9pm and was doing his proper screaming hysteria and they were really shocked. They suddenly understood that no, you can?t just leave him to it. My step-mum was asking if we thought it could be nightmares or something, which I have wondered about before actually.

Night weaning is going well. I?d cut down to only one feed a night a good long while ago anyway, and as he has slept through a few times I had confidence that he would be ok with it. So, I have not fed before 5.30 for about 3 weeks now. I had a bit of a wobble about it last weekend as he seemed to be taking a long time to settle when he woke in the night, but I think that was just the adjustment period for him. I do think it is improving his sleep, albeit slowly. That there above is the longest period of sleep we have ever had ? previous ?sleeping through? has always involved either a wake up at 8 or 9ish pm, or at 5ish am. But last night nothing.

Quick post as DD is asleep and need to shower. We seem to have gone backwards in the past few days. DD is still sleeping well once she is asleep and naps are starting to extend themselves but it's getting her to sleep which has turned into an absolute nightmare. It's partly teething - her two front teeth are coming in at the same time - and partly that she has learnt to sit up from lying on her back and to stand. So when ever she wakes up crying I go into her room and she's sitting upmlooking confused.

I can't just put her in her cot and sit next to her saying shhh any more. Now I need to sit next to her with my hand on her chest or she stands up. Any tips on how to deal with this without touching her? Do I just need to keep lying her down every time she gets up?

Took over 2.5 hours to get her to sleep yesterday. We were both exhausted by the end of it.

How's everyone going? :)

We're surviving! It's not been too bad - DS is generally sleeping 7pm - 4am (though he woke at 5am today which was a bit of a treat). I'm still struggling to get him back to sleep but I've decided to go completely the other way from our sleep consultants advice and am back to feeding him in the vain hope he will go back to sleep. It sometimes works though more often than not it doesn't. It's a lot nicer for everyone than CC though! Not sure how this fits with me stopping breastfeeding...... I thought I'd stop at 12 months but think I'll keep going a little longer.
DS is in nursery now and he seems to be sleeping ok. He generally has 2 naps though the longest he's slept in one go is an hour. The staff pat him to sleep which seems to be working. He's only been going in a couple of days a week so far as I've staggered my return to work but I'm hoping that the activity will tire him out further and lead to him sleeping even longer!
Hope everyone else is doing ok.