Sleep Nightmares Part III: At 3am No-One Can Hear You Scream

[CountBapula]

I've been moaning about documenting my 8 mo DS's 'challenging' sleep patterns on MN since he was three weeks old. He's still waking every 2-3 hours at least and the other thread's full, so here's a shiny new one for all you parents of hardcore sleep refusenik babies.

Who's with me?

Hi, can I join in the lack of sleep chat!!!

I'm just popping this down before reading as much as I can of the thread - its fairly big!! The low down is DS3 - 8 months... Wiht DS1 and even DS2 I was fairly clear about sleep and read all the books and followed the guidelines and they were both in their own cots / rooms quite early on. Not great sleepers but definately OK and now they are great.

Then DS3 came along... I've really done things differently, co-sleeping, feeding to sleep, feeding lying down in bed so we both end up falling asleep, breast feeding as soon as he wakes in night etc... I did it because mainly I was knackered! But also worried about him waking DS1 and DS2 especially as my eldest is now at school.

So I'm now a human dummy - he doesnt need milk at night as he feeds well in the day but he cant self settle. the early part of the night is ok but then from 3am onwards tends to be rubbish.

Last night was....

7.30 - asleep with a bottle
11pm - awake, wouldnt settle with me cuddling but did at midnight with DH cuddling
3.30 - Awake and fed full 8oz bottle
4am - Awake again but settled with cuddle
5.30 - Awake - brought into bed, boob-fed, asleep in minutes
7am - awake for day!

He has no teeth yet, refuses a dummy, feeds well, crawling since 6 months and now cruising.

I'm on the verge of giving up bf because I'm not strong enough when exhausted to not feed him and if I've become his prop to go to sleep i think i need to take that prop away...

Anyway, I'll be back when I've thought of a plan for tonight!!! All ideas very very very very welcome!!!

How old is your dd comrade?? I also dont want to try cc but not ruling it out...

Sorry for the lack of posting these days, I just can?t seem to keep up with threads any more.

We have a new sleep issue in this house now. DH has an ongoing back issue which he?s had for years and flares up every so often. He had a very bad flare up starting in May, and wasn?t able to get up to DS in the night at all for 6-8 weeks. Now he can again, but DS will not settle for him in the night at all. It?s heartbreaking to listen to DH trying to soothe him and DS screaming and screaming. DH is really upset by it as he takes it as being rejected by his son

He tried for over half an hour last night but we gave up as it was just causing DS too much distress. But then I think we?ll we?ve then had half an hour of DS in hysterics for no reason. I am always tempted to just leave them too it but I can?t bear to listen to it.

I?ve taken some EBM out of the freezer for tonight in the hope that if DH does a waking for food that might help. We?ve got plenty of frozen ebm so could do this for well over a week if required. Has anyone got any other suggestions?

Chooster my DD is 7 and a half months.

Cosmosis we've had the same problem as I've been the only one who has ever put DD to sleep. The trick with us as for DD and DH to have lots of play time just the two of them - a few hours at a time. We did the same thing with the ayi (housekeeper/nanny type). Ayi can put DD down for a nap without DD crying now.

Having said that it was impossible when we were still sometimes feeding to sleep.

Will be reading this thread carefully later- too tired now! But basically 7and a half month DD has all the above issues! Feeding to sleep, waking 2-3 times in the night, unable to self-settle, will only let me put her to sleep, 3yr old sibling I don't want to wake.

I did CC with 3yr old at 18 months and want to avoid it this time- partly because I don't want to wait another year! before she'll sleep through.

Thanks to the marvellous advice Ive had from this thread ds2 has slept through for the past 2 nights

I can only put it down to the following:

Being really strict with naps.
Feeding him loads of carbs and protein.
Getting him out in the fresh air every day and letting him run around (he can run now)
Putting him to bed earlier (6.15pm)
Not feeding him before midnight. (If he wakes up Ive been leaving him as he is only grumbling not crying)
and last night he slept from 6.30pm til 5.50am with only a minor grumble at 10.30pm.

Cannot believe it!

I will be back to report more in a few days.

Hi everyone

Cosmosis we have similar problems with DS2. DH has worked away Monday to Friday since DS2 was 3 months old and because of this DS2 (now 10 months) is used to having me settle him. He would scream his head off and I would end up rescuing after 20 mins or so. About a month ago I just made a decision that I wasn't going to anymore, that DS2 wasn't alone crying he was in loving arms and was just shouting for me (or rather my boobs!). I figured I needed to honour DH with his share of parenting plus I was wearing out! After about a month (12 nights) DS2 will now settle for DH and in minutes too.

We just need him to stop waking up every hour or two now!

Hi folks, been scouting through the last few pages and really really pleased for those of you whose babies are sleeping and settling much better. Judy my mum's bought the Millpond book and knows a sleep consultant, so if DS is still having trouble sleeping in a few months I'll consider that route. He's got a very similar pattern to what most people are describing here on the thread (4 months old).

and hugs for those of you still holding your eyes open with matchsticks...hope things improve soon.

It looks like most people here are/were bf but I have a question about a friend whose baby is a sleep 'mare and formula feeds, as I don't know much about that (other than everyone says ff babies usually sleep longer at night...about every other day I tell myself I'm going to stop bf for that very reason!)

her baby barely naps all day long and is up quite a lot at night ,hard to settle. She's 8 months old. My friend is adamant she won't feed her at all during the night - presumably that's the advice she's read / been given - but I wondered whether there's a chance her daughter IS hungry? She's funny with feeding in the day and often doesn't finish a bottle, so I wondered whether she prefers frequent smaller feeds.

Perhaps this belongs on the breast/bottle thread but it's about sleep too...any thoughts? Is there any evidence that ff babies should sleep through or is that just the received wisdom?

Well, guess who's been posting about sleep issues on the wrong thread... duh! So nice to find a supportive group of folks going through it all too. Our problem is early waking - DD is 6 months, and always slept till 6 a.m, but now always wakes at 4 or 5 a.m. (and sometimes more...). I started doing Wake to Sleep, but after the first 3 nights the waking got much worse (possibly teething) so I stopped. But things are a bit calmer now and daytime naps are returning, so I thought I'd try again. BUT, am v confused as to when to do it. The 4 a.m. wake up is often just a grumble and she can usually go back to sleep - either ss or with dummy silently replaced by us. But then around 5 she is properly awake, though happy to wait for her bottle till 6. So I've been doing WTS at 3 a.m. (an hour prior as the book says), but as she sometimes only wakes slightly at 4 and properly at 5 it doesn't seem like the right time. Any advice much appreciated.

Oh and I meant to say I think the ebm is a great idea. Wish I could express, it just never worked for me.

Last night was pretty grim. When I went I'm for the 3 a.m. Wake to Sleep she was awake, then woke again half hourly, till DH got up with her at 5.30. Guess I abandon the wake to sleep? Any advice from those at the battlefront?

Well that didn?t work.

DH managed to settle him when he woke at 11, but then not at 2.30 and we ended up rowing in the bathroom as DH said this was all because of bfing and he?d never been able to get him to sleep etc. DS refused the bottle, but I think because he wasn?t hungry as I didn?t feed him either, settled him at 2.30 and at 5. He woke again at 6 when I gave him his morning bf but he fell back to sleep and had to be woken at 7 for breakfast.

I don?t believe that DH not being able to settle him is anything to do with bf, if it was DS wouldn?t be able to self settle, and he can ? he self settles for naps and he self settles at bedtime most of the time, and neither would he settle for me without a bf. I don?t know what the problem is but I do know that DH goes into it stressed and thinking he?s not going to be able to settle him and I don?t think that can be helping. But of course, because it?s all my fault, any tips I give him are seen as criticism and if I go in I?m interfering and if I leave them to it I?m ignoring it/refusing to help. I lie in bed and listen to DH getting more and more stressed and it just seems to me that ds won?t settle with DH being like that.

Anyway, I have come to the conclusion that it?s probably time to night wean. I don?t think he ?needs? a night feed, he has slept through a few times, and has gone without a feed in the night lots of times so I think when I do feed him at night it?s more about me knowing he?ll settle quickly and easily rather than because he needs the milk.

Looby I think this question was asked further up thread and it seemed to be that both bf and ff babies are sleep refusers. Having said that I do think you're more likely to have problems if you feed to sleep and bf because (as was in my case) that becomes your only tool to get your dc to sleep. Perhaps you're also more likely to cosleep and just stick your dc on the boob at 12 then 3, 4, 5, 5:30 etc am so you can go back to sleep rather than actually get your DC self settling. Also, purely anecdotal, but my DD has been sleeping better since I stopped bfing but I think that's because she could never feed to sleep. As we sometimes would end up feeding to sleep with bfing and just co-sleeping/bfing at all hours just to get some sleep DD was definitly confused about what her sleep cues actually were.

Mamanderose. How long have you been waking to sleep for? I'm inclined to give up after 3 - 5 days tbh.

Cos my DH is exactly the same wrt getting frustrated. I know DD won't sleep when he is getting more stressed - they just feed off each other.

I've mentioned before that my GP was a sleep specialist in Australia. From her POV babies can medically go 6-7 hours without a feed from 5.5kg and through the night (12hrs) from 9kg.

1st full day of making DD go to sleep in her cot today. Tried it yesterday with mixed success. Today was stressful for the first few sleeps - she sobbed her heart out :( but just now she went down without any fuss or crying at all. Hopefully we're turning a corner now....

Dear Comrade, Thanks for your post, v grateful for any support as I do feel rather ignorant (like all of us, I suppose...). I did it for 3 nights last week, then stopped, and now two nights, so I thought I'd try a couple more, just in case, but last night was very dispiriting. I'm lucky that at the moment DH is happy to do the very early mornings and go to bed early, and I do the late shifts, so we are just about coping.
Second sleep issue: DD has just started at nursery - done 2 'practice' mornings this week, and neither time has slept for more than 10 minutes. Friday will be a full day (and then 2.5 days a week) so at that point it becomes a worry. It's quite noisy there, and of course all new to her (us), so I just wondered if any of you folk have experience of this - how long did it take to get them to sleep at nursery?
Thanks for any comments

Cosmosis- you could be describing my DH and the arguments we've had! In the end I just do most of the night shifts myself, it's less stressful in the long run!!

Hi, my LO is 11 months now and has had an off on relationship with sleep since birth.
She had colic untill 3 months and then spent a month happily sleeping through the night. Then that all stopped. She was wkaing up every two hours untill about 6 months and then would wake at 2 and 4 for at least and hour. I ended up giving her a bottle at 4 so that I could get another 2 hours sleep. In July she started to only wake up at 4 for her bottle - the joy!!! However for the last two weeks she has gone back to the 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock waking. This has happened at the same time she worked out how to sit up and crawl on her own. So what I think has been happening at 2, is that she wakes and sits up. Gets so excited about sitting up that she does not lay down and then can not work out how to settle herself. Which means that she is awake. The 4 o'clock wake up, I know think is for food.
Now My LO has always cried when going to bed. From the beginning she has cried when ever put down to sleep, regardles of if its her cot, next to me moses basket or push chair. She does this even if she can barely keep her head up because she is tired.
I've tried, pick up put down and CC but neither work. I'm now trying to cut the food association with the 4 o'clock feed, by giving her water. This has only been going for a few days and has so far meant 1-2 hours of arguing to then falling asleep and being awake within an hour. I am getting desperate, as I know we all are. So my questions are, does anyone have an idea as to why she cries every time she goes down? And any suggestions about how to get her sleeping through. She is such a happy chap (if a girl can be called that) during the day, that I hate to think that sleep is turning into a battle field.

Hello again. Did WTS at 3 a.m. again. She woke at 4 a.m., very awake. Tried to leave her to settle, but eventually gave her the dummy and quickly left again. Woke again twice, c. 5 and 5.30, but then slept till 6.40! Does that count as success (certainly feels like a lie-in)? Do we keep going with WTS? And any comments re my question above about learning to sleep at nursery? Thank you in advance.

Well we had more success last night actually. DH got up to him at 3.30 when he woke and then called me in to say he didn?t know what to do. So he sat then and watched me while I settled him. DS behaved himself well, by doing all the things for me that DH said he only did for him, like stopping crying but lying in bed for ages not falling asleep and rubbing his eyes and then starting to cry again. Demonstrating nicely that it?s just what DS does and it?s not that DH is not good at settling him.

Anyway, DS woke again at 5 and DH settled him really quickly. Hurrah. So I think he has hopefully gained some confidence, and I do think that as DH has been trying more, DS is getting used to him going in to him again.

Wrt to sleeping at childcare, my DS is at a childminder and has always been brilliant at sleeping for her, he self settled for naps with her far earlier than he did with me. My friends crap sleeping DS is at nursery and he is the same, he will fall asleep in seconds at nursery! Little sods

Thanks Cosmosis, that's encouraging. She's now pretty good at napping at home so I guess she'll get the hang of it eventually... And well done re last nights breakthrough

Just a quick post as I'm going to go to bed [stern look at self].

It's getting better here. DD now going to sleep without protest by being shhhh'd and patted. On Saturday or Sunday I'm going to take the next step but I'm not sure what it should be. Can you tell me what you think?

• shhh pat (getting her to sleep now
• shhh hand on chest
• shhh next to cot with a hand if she goes bananas
• plonk her down, walk off and go back and put hand on chest if she goes ape?

Not sure! I just soooo want to be able to put her down and walk off and for her to NOT WAKE UP overnight and for at least an hour and a half for naps.

I did shh hand on chest, then if that works, shhh next to cot, then just next to cot, then gradual withdrawal.

Cos (or anyone) what do you actually do for gradual withdrawal? What do you do if they go bonkers?

I waited till he was reliably falling asleep on his own with me sitting in the chair next to the cot. I am now staying in his room, but ?sorting stuff? by the changing table which is near the door. What I am actually doing it just standing there waiting for him to fall asleep lol. Next I plan to stand right by the door, then in the doorway, then outside it.

The first night I tried it he cried, so I calmed him down and went back to the chair. The next night he was fine.

Round our way the health visitors call gradual withdrawal, the disappearing chair!