Sleep Nightmares Part III: At 3am No-One Can Hear You Scream

[CountBapula]

I've been moaning about documenting my 8 mo DS's 'challenging' sleep patterns on MN since he was three weeks old. He's still waking every 2-3 hours at least and the other thread's full, so here's a shiny new one for all you parents of hardcore sleep refusenik babies.

Who's with me?

hi, ladies, thanks for the welcome. Well we're still co-sleeping and DS is waking up less and sleeping for longer periods. He still wakes up a lot while in his cot. It's a temporary measure because I miss being in a bed with DH but I am a LOT less tired xx

Hello all. Not updated for a while. Good to catch up on all your news!

DS is sleeping very well at the moment and has been for a while, with the exception of a horrible bout of teething for a week which messed up night-time sleep and naps, and made him only want to sleep on us. Until then, he'd had a few weeks of only waking once - between 3 and 4 usually - then going back down until 6 or 7. For the last four nights that waking has either been at about 5am or he's slept through - on Monday night he did 8:30pm until 7am - I HAD EIGHT HOURS' SLEEP!!!!

He's napping well, too. 1-2 hours twice a day. 'Tis bliss.

The only thing is that bedtime is still very hit and miss. He feeds to sleep about half the time. If he doesn't (usually if there's been too long a gap between last nap and bedtime) we have up to an hour and a half of pissing about before he'll settle. It's very much like Cosmosis describes: crawling round the cot, standing up, bouncing on the mattress and sing-songing to himself.

I've taken to using a technique I've called 'controlled ignoring'. Basically, DS is perfectly happy if I'm engaging with him as I sit next to the cot. If I turn away and start mumsnetting he gets really pissed off and starts hollering at me. I ignore him for one minute, then I go back over, lay him down and put a hand on his chest and shh. If he doesn't settle and starts pissing about again I repeat.

If he really won't settle, I've started to leave the room for 1-2 minutes at a time. He gets really pissed off then. I come back in, he stops crying, I lay him back down, put my hand on him and shh. I usually only have to do that twice.

It's funny, because at 11 months, I can see that he understands exactly what I want him to do, he is actually comforted by my presence, and he cries for attention rather than due to distress. It's completely different to doing sleep training at six months, when I didn't really think he understood what was happening or what was expected of him.

He still has never gone to sleep in his cot without me touching him, but it doesn't affect his ability to self-settle when he wakes in the night. I sometimes hear him cry quite loudly for 20-30 seconds and go back to sleep.

Re night feeds, I still feed if he wakes at 4/5am. It's just easier for everyone. He dropped the other feeds himself without me really doing anything so I'll just keep giving it until he drops it of his own accord. I'm back at work in four weeks, but I think I can handle a 4 or 5am feed if I go to bed at 10pm latest.

Is this thread only for babies or can I join in with a preschooler?

Hello GrownUpNow. Most of us here have babies so probably won't have much advice, but can offer support and

Can I ask about self settling when waking in the night?
How do you teach them?
Can someone explain pick up put down in a nutshell?

After another shit night I am desparate. DS woke last night 9.30pm, 11pm, 3am, 4.30am (for the day)

Of course he was exhausted by 8am so has had just over an hour now am going to wake him up see how he likes it

seasidesister I tried pretty much everything to teach DS to self-settle at night, because he was waking every two hours. Nothing worked. I gave up and just fed through the night. Then he figured it out himself at around 8 months. Nothing I did, he just did it when he was ready.

I think what helped was when he became more mobile in his sleep and learned to roll onto his side or tummy. He does that between sleep cycles now. I hear a 'clunk' on the monitor when he crashes into the cot bars

I tried PU/PD at five months and it just confused him and pissed him off. You just pick them up when they cry and put them down when they stop, ad infinitum, until they go to sleep. Problem was, DS never stopped crying :(

I found it much easier at that age to sit next to the cot, pat him, cuddle him and talk to him soothingly. Within 3-4 nights and after a lot of screaming he was settling in the cot without crying, as long as I had a hand on him. It made no difference to his night wakings, though, and it all went tits up when he learned to crawl/sit up/stand

Sorry, just seen that he's 13 months so you might not want to do the whole 'wait and see' thing any longer :(

PU/PD with older babies is less about picking up/cuddling than just repeatedly lying them back down, which is sort of what I'm doing.

How does he go to sleep at the start of the night?

count - it's always interesting to read about your DS as mine seems to do pretty much the same but a couple of weeks later. We've hit the standing up in the cot phase - for us it's particularly bad at naptime. Just had a 40 minute stand off with him but he's finally asleep.
seasidesister - I've been doing gradual retreat with my DS and it seems to be really working in terms of teaching DS to self settle but it's been a bit of a long haul - we've been at it for nearly 3 months now (though we've had 2 or 3 trips away which have set us back and countless nights of cold and teething which have delayed things too). I almost feel evangelical about it because now we've finally got to the point where DS falls asleep without us touching him he is regularly only waking once at 4.30am for a feed (I'm trying to phase this out this week and hoping he might go longer). But then I come on here and read about other babies (particularly count's DS) and wonder if it would have happened anyway. We were away last week though and DS was harder to settle in the travel cot so I went back to having a hand on him to settle and he woke 3-4 times a night. Now we're back to sitting beside the cot he's woken once the last two nights but maybe it was because I was sleeping in the same room as him he was waking or because it was unfamiliar surroundings?
Anyway, before we started with this DS would suck my finger to sleep. The first step in the gradual retreat was to rock DS in my arms while sucking my finger for 3 nights, then hold him in my arms while letting him suck my finger for a count of 20 (giving it back when he got distressed which was pretty much straight away) for 3 nights, then a count of 15, and then a count of 10. Next, we had to put DS in the cot with our arms round him while letting him suck for 10 for 3 nights, then a count of 8, then 5. After that we were to just have our arms round him, then stroke him, then have a hand on him. We then moved onto sitting right by the cot so he could touch us through the bars and are now sitting a couple of feet from the cot. The plan is to move further from the cot until out of the room.
I really didn't think it would work but it has. We actually went to a sleep consultant but I think it would be pretty easy to do your own plan. Would your DS fall asleep if you rocked him? You could just omit the sucking the finger bit. It really helped us to have a plan written down and to trust it and feel we would stick to it. Sometimes I adjusted the steps to make the transition more gentle which has meant it's taken longer but there has been not too much crying (to be honest, some nights there have been a lot but probably not much more than before or if we weren't doing it). For me it's really helped to think I'm on a path and if we go back a few steps because he's ill or we're away I don't feel we've completely lost our way. I also night weaned at the start by reducing the time he fed for by a minute every couple of nights (though kept one feed as I felt he was waking up hungry). I also now give DS his last feed before his bath to try and get rid of the feeding to sleep association.
I think if you do PUPD you'll get results more quickly but it does sound quite tough - I think you have to put your baby down in the cot and when they start crying pick them up and comfort them. As soon as they stop crying you lay them down again and repeat until they are asleep. I think the important thing is to put them down as soon as they are quiet. I don't think it would have worked for our DS as he wouldn't calm down if we picked him up once he got himself worked up into a big bout of hysterical crying. There's a baby whisperer website with lots of info about PUPD here

Sorry for the huge post - hope some of it helps though!

Just reread your earlier post seaside and see your DS goes down ok at bedtime so not sure if my stuff is relevant

Does he just fall asleep on his own at bedtime?

Thank you so much for your posts.

Really helpful and interesting. The gradual withdrawal sounds excellent and is my next step if the plan below doesnt work.

DS2 does go down on his own at bedtime, its the waking that is the problem. He just seems to be a really light sleeper and will always wake up when we go upstairs, even though we tiptoe around.

When he wakes up he wants fed which is OK the first time but he is 13mths now and shouldnt need a feed every 3 hours.

Im going to try the pick up put down tonight. If he wakes up after his 1030 feed Im NOT going to feed him but just pick him up and cuddle him until he calms down then put him down. Then leave him for 5 mins. and repeat until dawn probably Im not feeding him until AT LEAST 4.30am.

Im going to read the baby whisperer link then Im going to bed. Will let you know how it goes.

Well, DS was asleep (fed to sleep), then woke up and ready to play (almost 2 hours after we started our bedtime routine. It does my head in. DH is with him now. If I try to rock him to sleep or get him to calm down he resists and fights. I end up just letting him play on the bed a roll around for a bit, then try to get him to sleep later. I'll go back in 15 mins and see how it's gone.

I am thinking of using a sleep consultant (but not doing CIO or CC) because it does my head in having to rock him to sleep (mainly while he cries and fights me) for every nap/bedtime unless he's fed to sleep or in the car. I feel bad, if I could cope with it, it's probably reasonably nice for him to call asleep in my arms or on the boob (except for the fighting and crying bit). :(

I am against baby training in principle to make him convenient (ie you train a dog not a human being) but I am not doing that well with how he is!

Moan over, sorry.

Oh judysdreamhorse what sleep consultant did you use? Thanks x

I saw a link about an attachment parenting sleep plan for over 1s, think someone posted it on this thread but I can't find it. Does anyone else remember it? It might be useful for seasidesister, I'll keep looking....

Found it!

drjaygordon.com/attachment/sleeppattern.html

Am planning to use it in a couple of months when DS2 is one and still not sleeping!!

We used Millpond and the consultant has been lovely. Fairly firm but really understanding (offered to let us put things on hold when my dad was ill) and didn't push cc on us when we said we didn't want to do it.
DS was a nightmare to settle tonight and I ended up putting my hands on him as he was crying so much so it's back two steps tonight. Think he is teething again - can't believe this will go on for another year!

Good link hanbee

thanks judysdreamhorse I was thinking of them or Andrea Grace, but she seems to do CIO with baby in the cot but you stay in the room

Number1SonMum we used Andrea Grace at six months. She is lovely, but I'd just say that she insists on full night weaning from six months old. I found this quite difficult (I think my DS is sometimes genuinely hungry at night even at 11 months). I don't think Millpond insist on this, so if you don't want to do full night weaning (ie no milk from 7-7) they might be a better option.

However, we've used her technique of sitting by the cot while DS cries a few times to wean him off rocking to sleep. It does work, and it's far less traumatic than CC or similar. We did it because PUPD didn't work, and I didn't want to leave him on his own to cry.

count thanks a lot. That will help us to make a decision. I think sometimes DS is definately hungry at night because he has a whole feed (200 ml of milk). We need to decide to just ride it out, use sleep consultants or try and do it ourselves (eg using no cry sleep solution but I've not really got anywhere with that so far, maybe my own fault because he keeps crying!)

Hanbee thank you for that link, very interesting. Day 1-3 sound tough but worth it.

Last night was better. He went down at 7pm, woke at 9pm and I cuddled him and put him down without a feed. I fell asleep then and he woke up at midnight. I fed him then and then he slept until 5.30am!!! a miracle I got two blocks of 3 hrs and 5 hrs and feel like a new woman today.

I think I need to persevere with being strict on naps and giving just one feed before midnight and just cuddle and back to cot if he wakes after midnight.

Thanks for all the info on pick up put down technique. I think because is able to fall asleep without me in the room Im not get into the patting stuff yet.

Of course it could all change again tonight.

Will keep you posted.

Hi ladies

Do you have room for one more sleep deprived soul? DS is 10.5 months - was a great sleeper til around 5 months (ahhh how I took that for granted). Don't want to cry CC - trying to summon the energy to follow the NCSS and would be great to get some support/share ideas.

Part of me thinks he will sleep through when he's ready - but then I read these nightmare posts about 3 year olds still walking up and my blood runs cold!

Judy Thank you for posting about my twins, you are right they aren't hungry for milk in the morning so I am trying to cut down on the 4am feed. It's actually got worse though, lately we've gone back to 2 wakings (that makes 4 in total) they do wake in the night and sometimes self settle, I'll hear a cry on the monitor but they will go back to sleep. This wek though they are both cutting their top teeth and are getting more mobile DTD1 now able to pull herself up DTD starting to crawl forwards as well as backwards

I think I've heard something about a sleep regression (although it's never really got much better) at 9 months. I too am worried I'll never have a full night it's rubbish

For the first time ever DS has slept from 7pm to 6am! I decided to try and stop the last feed as I didn't think he needed it and it was more a habit.

From Monday to Thursday I reduced the time I fed him for at 4.30am (7m, 5m, 4m, 3m). On Friday night DH got up and settled him when he woke up and he cried on and off for about 20minutes. Then last night he didn't have to go in at all! He woke up a couple of times through the night and cried out but went back to sleep after.
Trying not to get my hopes up that we've cracked it - it's normally one step forward, one step back but hopefully it means we're a lot nearer to it becoming a regular occurrence.

WOO! judy, that's ace! Well done

Might have to get some tips from you as DS is taking ages to settle at bedtime and I'm getting sick of all the buggering about. He's not upset - he's all bouncy and giggly, which makes it harder in a way because I almost have to make him upset before he'll go to sleep. He was lying there clapping tonight

I wish I could just plonk him down and walk out and know he'll go off to sleep.

I everyone. It's probably been two months of hell since I last posted but I've frankly been too depressed about her sleep to post.

Last week was good. We got her weaned off feeding to sleep and walking to sleep. She now goes out like a light if I pat her chest as she lays her back against my chest. The problem is she became used to sleeping on me and she went from proper naps and good nights sleep to 30 minute wakings again. I've got to get her going to sleep in her cot but I just don't know how to make the next step. Pupd isn't working. She thinks it's a game and my back can't take patting her as she squirms and cries. I think were ready for cc tbh but just can't face leaving her especially as she now says mumumumu hen she is upset. Any ideas?