MN needs a closer watch of FWR

[BodegaSushi]

There is a concerning growth of posts with racist undertones cropping up on these boards, all under the guise of being proudly 'anti-woke'.

Apparently diversity is 'woke' and worthy of derision.

This is the thread I'm referring to here.

Disney went woke now they're going broke www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4836570-disney-went-woke-now-theyre-going-broke

Mumsnet needs to looks at why that board draws such types of posts, and why posters feel so comfortable openly airing their racism.

The purpose of all of these posts are to try to shame women into thinking that issues concerning being female as less significant than issues concerning race or ability. This is just wrong.

Women have the right to say no to males even if we share some other issues with those males such as our race or a disability.

It's false teaming and wholly wrong.

it's not a feminist position to force women into accepting males as women because there are other shared issues. Not ever. Just no.

The purpose of all of these your post are to is try to shame ethnic women into thinking that issues concerning being female ethnicity is are less significant than issues concerning gender or ability. This is just wrong.

Ethnic women have the right to say no to males and white females even if we share some other issues with those males and white females, such as our gender in the case of White females or our ethnicity in the case of men. or a disability.

It's false teaming and wholly wrong. You may want to look in the mirror. Ethnic women haven't infiltrated anyone - Our experiences are dismissed and we are constantly denied entry into the room, let alone a seat at the table in a hostile one.

it's should not a feminist position to force women into accepting males only White womens views and issues as ALL womens views and issues. because there are other shared issues. Not ever. Just no.

Fixed it.

@KarensManager, re: your post of 13:59:

I wrote a detailed and informative response to you, giving context for any other posters who might not have felt inclined to refer back tens of pages, but my phone ate it and I'm fairly sure it's not worth me rewriting something that you'll glibly dismiss anyway.

So I'll just say that in future, I'd appreciate it if you didn't allude to posts that can only have been mine (but without quoting or naming me, thereby retaining plausible deniability), insinuating that I'm lying about both my behaviour and intent, with no evidence. It's not very "good faith", now, is it?

The separating out of discussions on sex and gender from more general feminist topics has changed the tone of discussion. It's a 'gender critical' topic now rather than a specifically feminist topic. 'Gender critical' is a broad church and in practice includes people with all sorts of beliefs and attitudes who know men aren't women. Thats a low bar. There are still plenty of brilliant feminists posting there (thank you! ) but it's much more of a mixed bag than it was before.

It was a bad move to separate the feminist forums in this way, at the behest of posters who have spectacularly failed to post in the new 'not about gender' feminist topic that they demanded. Lots of us said so at the time.

I will always be grateful that MN chose to facilitate these discussions but I do think they got a bit giddy about it, to the detriment of feminist discussion. Regular posters even had to fight for the topic to be called 'sex and gender discussions' rather than'sex and gender debate' because the latter would have created a really intimidating environment for transwidows seeking support.

I first joined MN just after FWR started and my recollection is that it wasn't asked for by feminists, it was asked for by posters who didn't want to see feminist posts across the site. They wanted all the feminism corralled into one place so they could hide it and MNHQ went along with that.

The 'sex and gender discussion' topic is only the latest meddling with FWR. Since its inception, there have been regular 1000 post threads in site stuff about the nasty feminists and how they must be made to shut up or be divided into smaller groups or made to accommodate people who come to argue that feminism is a bad thing and not infrequently MNHQ have complied with these demands.

Unlike some other areas of this site, FWR has never been a protected topic. MNHQ have been very clear over the years that it's not a topic for feminists, it's a topic for anyone with an opinion about feminism. We are required to be polite to all-comers, even those who make it clear they hate women.

I've looked through the thread OP complains about. I disagree with the OP of that thread and so apparently do most of the posters there but it's not in AIBU which invites a swift, binary moral judgment. There are lots of thoughtful posts about the clunkiness and cringiness of mainstream media's response to calls for diversity. If that OP had been posted anywhere else on MN the responses would have been much worse and much less thoughtful.

So if people have a problem with a thread or post on FWR then they can report it or they can come over to FWR and talk about it. We can't bite you through your screen and we can't tell you to fuck off. Come and use your words. What are you scared of?

@pikkumyy77

It is disturbing to see this virulent hatred for minorities on display here on mumsnet. FWR and these posters circulate Daily Mail , Fox News, and Russian Troll Farm propaganda freely but do not seem to be aware of the real world consequences of the far right policies they pursue. I live in Boston, MA where the owner of LibsofTikTok, an out and out racist, homophobe, and transphobe encouraged death threats and bomb threats to the Children’s Hospital which threatened the lives of doctors and shut down services for all children. Recently a crazy man with a knife attacked a professor and two students in a Canadian university class on gender. People are being whipped up to a frenzy of hysteria with Qanon style myths and lies about the evils of LGBTQ+ people when the vast majority of arrested child abusers are religious leaders of standard, homophobic, religious communities

This is the core of the problem. The right-wing in the US and elsewhere chooses quite specific issues to focus upon: anti-transgender being just one of these. Their propaganda is amplified by Russian (and other) troll farms, so you'll see such issues spreading elsewhere. That is why we are seeing an increase in anti-trans posts. At its core, it's false.

The above post astonishes me. Most of the posters I read on FWR are, like me, long-time voters on the left politically. We now find ourselves in the position of feeling politically homeless because the vast majority of political positions espoused by the right are repulsive but the left is currently operating under the influence of an ideology that is at its heart homophobic and misogynistic when it seeks to erase women as a sex-based class. The assertion that TWAW is biologically nonsense and nothing to do with politics at all.

@Socrateswasrightaboutvoting I continue to admire your poise.

FWR is the most racist thread along with RF ones and the whataboutery and minimising of this is astounding. I am terrified to think that I undoubtedly share space in real life with you and people like. You are parents on my children whatsapp groups (the micro aggressions are rife there too) and you are teachers in our childrens school, midwives and other health care professionals. Awful. Just awful

Completely disingenuous to say most on FWR (should I say, most of those who remain posting these days on FWR) are long standing left leaning people.

I saw myself a poster saying how a bunch of them had got banned from the Telegraph forums so hopped over to Mumsnet.

Crikey. Yes best get that closer watch underway, if one person says a 'bunch' of ex-Telegraph forum botherers are on there. Whatever next.

Hang on...the word 'bunch' is quite the Americanism...so could be...a LIE?

Jesus wept. The terror that a poster from FWR might be...in a WhatsApp group...roaming the streets...in YOUR SHOPS buying (whoops, appropriating words from slavery) creating an agreement to purchase goods before going home whilst turning someone into a newt on the trip back is preposterous.

If you feel that words on a thread are whatever ist then get on the thread.

If you choose to ignore it, and walk by, then you cannot bring it up at a later date to tell other posters off for not doing it right as you have missed your chance to get involved.

These are all choices you are personally making.

Posters feel strongly I can see that but those who are upset can you say more on what is said that you feel distressed by

For instance if a poster says you cannot change sex on FWR is that problematic?

Let me say it loudly for those in the back, PLEASE PROVIDE SOME EXAMPLES TO SUPPORT THE CLAIMS YOU ARE MAKING.

This has shown me that I can never be true friends with white women

Can I ask:

Firstly why do you assume posters are white?

Secondly if a white person said that about Asian women for example that would be unacceptable so why is it OK for you to make sweeping racist comments like the above?

Thirdly why do you assume that all the posters are women?

Lmao, I certainly was invlved on the thread. The dual thinking here is ridiculous!" You have the arrogance to assert that 'cos you say everyone is a kind hearted progressive lefty who means trans people no harm, that's undeniable fact.

When I point out that a poster has explained how a dedicated group of people came from a forum of a right wing paper because their views were not accepted even in that community, that's laughable. Because it contradicts your narrative?

Trust me mate, your idea that it's left leaning people supporting fundamentally right wing views, ranging from anti abortionists to anti LGBTQ activitsts is what's laughable.

Regardless of what an unnamed 'poster' once said - the majority of FWR posters are on the left. Class analysis demands a knowledge of sex regardless of the misogynists who pretend it doesn't.

Knowledge of sex supercedes political allegiance. This isn't the US - despite some posters attempts to pretend it is. There have always been campaigning coalitions around important issues from trade justice to women's rights.

One of the ways the TWAW crew show their ignorance of women's lives is that they have no clue about all the activism and support networks put in place by women across the UK generations prior to all the TWAW bullshit. Women - alongside all their unpaid emotional labour in the home - have always volunteered in their communities to support carers, those experiencing DV, food poverty, etc.

But it's unsurpring to see that this thread has veered through every misogynist cliche there is to try to undermine FWR. Another point new posters don't understand about MN is that abusive and inadequate men have always tried to disrupt MN to a greater or lesser extent. It's why posters are adept at spotting sealions and gfs. And none of their online misogynist posturing makes a difference to women's offline activism. That's why the TWAW lot are seething with frustration. Women will always manage to speak without male supervision. We've been doing it for generations - in places that men don't even know exist.

AMEN.

If you can't see that the issue is not trans people, but men then I'm not sure I can help you.

And yes the issues that we have with men, are hived off onto a board called 'sex and gender' because it makes it easier for the men who monitor it to keep it all in one place.

Some women with issues about men are on the right, some are on the left, and mainly most are in the centre. Because that's how society on the whole is.

Where / when was that post about the Telegraph forums please CandlelightGlow ? That's quite some claim so it would be good to verify it. Thank you.

The core of the problem is that LGBTQIA+ (or however many letters there are this week) activists have alienated left wing feminists and large swathes of ordinary society in general by telling us all we're bigots if we refuse to pretend to believe NONSENSE, and yes, that does play into the hands of groups who wish trans people harm.

Because it means trans people now have fewer friends than they should.

At its core, it's false.

I’d say this sums up the issue with gender ideology quite well.

For those who are against FWR, are you against women posting you cannot change sex?

Those posters came and have mostly stayed talking amongst themselves in a single continuous thread. You will find them all there. I have seen maybe three who post on other threads. One or two others who were always here as well, did you want to count them?

Would you like me to analyse the numbers to check my estimation?

I think with this claim you have grasped onto something someone said and have tried to build it into something it is not.

I don't suppose you can link to that thread where the poster referred to getting banned from the Telegraph, can you?

No I'm sorry that is completelty ignoring the entire point of the whole crux of the issue. People are pointing out left right and centre that FWR is becoming a breeding ground for hateful regressive ideas against minorities and mainly trans people but not exclusively.

You guys don't get to sit there supporting and posting on threads denigrating trans people, taking the piss out of pictures of them, endlessly bigging each other up over ensuring you never offer even basic courtesies to trans people, and then say it's "not about trans people"

They just won’t admit the racism. You saw what happened to every example given- it was rubbished and dismissed. Step #1 of the playbook. Deny the racism exists [in the example].

The example thread I linked is full of posters appropriating slavery and the slave trade to dishonestly augment their arguments against surrogacy.

A self-identified Black poster objected to the use of such language and references and if you read the thread was mercilessly bullied and gaslit and the usage of such language increased.

The posters on this thread agreed that TRAs who also appropriate slavery to their ends are being racist- but not one poster on here could bring themselves to recognise the racism that FWR posters exhibited on that example thread I posted.

It really is beside the point though, the main point is that again, let me copy paste for you - idea that it's left leaning people supporting fundamentally right wing views, ranging from anti abortionists to anti LGBTQ activitsts is what's laughable.

I don't actually care where people come from, dont pretend that these are progressive ideas that are not rooted in conservativism and phobia!

"Left" my left arse cheek. If your views ssely align with the right why do you need to pretend you're on the left?