Childfree Mumsnetters' Board?

[musixa]

There's been some discussion on this thread about the idea of a childfree/life without children board, so I thought I would raise the suggestion on Site Stuff

[[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4811166-to-ask-why-so-many-child-free-people-are-on-mumsnet?reply=126404125

My thinking is that the board would be a safe space for Mumsnetters who, for whether by choice or making the best of the hand they've been dealt, are embracing the childfree life, to discuss the issues that uniquely affect us - some examples I can think of are discrimination when it comes to workplace holidays; planning for old age and inheritance issues, how to cope when your friendship group only want to meet in child-friendly venues; family pressure to have children.

I would also hope it might stop so many threads like the linked one popping up, which often attract goady posters.

I hope you don't feel this is a step too far as a board suggestion and will give it serious consideration.

There is literally what MN have posted on this thread and many others though.

Posters without children are welcome

Literally on the thread listed in the OP.

You're incorrect, the poster asked Who is this "MN disagree with you" of which you speak

My response was factual, not based on opinion or a disagreement.

If you personally disagree with Mumsnet allowing childfree/childless women to post, that's entirely your perogative.

And then various people responded by saying I must want people kicked off mumsnet, that it’s impossible to define what a mother is anyway, that mums are an oppressor class vs childless people, that we should all just #bekind

Except nobody said any of this.

You keep referring to wanting a space for just mums, but denying you want to kick non-mums off.

No childless/free person on here has said that it’s impossible to define what a mum is - they’ve pointed out that MN mums have excluded women whose babies have died.

You have referred to mums as the minority, and another poster directly compared mums to the systemic racism experienced by black women. Not one childfree/less poster has said that mums are an oppressor class. If anything. again, it’s the mums doing that.

Nobody has said you need to #bekind. I said that there was in fact no need for you to do so as we’re not doing anything wrong, are entitled to be here and are just as valid as anyone else. Not deserving of additional kindness or pity.

As ever, you are making stuff up in your head to justify childless people not getting a board that literally would not affect you in the least.

I did say I wanted to ignore this thread for awhile to protect my mental health so thanks for tagging me there

If your phrase that it’s impossible to define what a mother is anyway wasn't referring to the conversation we had up thread then what was it referring to?

Unless you clarify then no I wont be asking MN to delete my post.

Where did I claim you said I didnt count as a mother?

I said you were referencing me talking about whether or not I count as a mother after having a stillbirth

Unless you are me then Im not sure how me saying that about myself was you saying it.

But it does feel like I am not the one who is getting posts wrong here

I am confused generally.

So there are two sets of posters so far I have specifically interacted with.

1 set who believe that unless I am still actively trying for a baby I shouldnt be on here because my baby was stillborn- so I understand why they would still be arguing we shouldnt have a board. I don't agree with them, I think their opinion is pretty horrible but I understand.

The other set who agree that women who are childless due to infertility, but who have had miscarriages or stillbirths are mothers, and that we can be here but we are only allowed to speak about issues specific to us if they are particular to the bereavement and loss. Otherwise we are not allowed to ask for a board to concentrate on life rather than death because although we are mothers, and therefore "allowed" we are not mothers enough to require our own board and cant possibly have enough to talk about by ourselves and would require monitoring to make sure we are decent human beings.

But apparently its women without children who dismiss women with children.

Personally I would like to see a Life Without Children board for childless women, and women who have lost their children. If childfree people also post there then naturally they would be welcome as they are on every other forum on the site as per MNs position on this. If that particular board happens to be extra welcoming and brings out the naice biscuits for them and the pom bears then so be it.

But Mumsnet HQ have literally stated that all are welcome. That's a fact.

There have been repeated suggestions that those of us without children should bugger off to other places like Reddit.

And many assertions about how horrible and anti-children those other places are.

Have you considered that maybe that's exactly why a childfree space here would be welcome? No, I don't want to frequent a site where language like breeders and crotch-goblins are used. That's just not me, and it never will be.

I like the culture here. I like the chat between brilliant women I can relate to, whether they're mothers or not. Mumsnot could be a great new board.

I'm a frequent babysitter, and a fun auntie. Almost all of the women in my life are mums, and they're brill. It just wasn't the right life path for me. It'd be nice to just have a wee place here to talk about the things that accompany not having children, like dealing with heavy hints to provide grandchildren.

An excellent point. The fact that some on this thread have equated 'child free' with 'child hater' says a lot about them.

There have been repeated suggestions that those of us without children should bugger off to other places like Reddit.

Ah, yes, good old reddit - where the majority of users are male, and the vast majority are younger men, many of whom are teenage boys.

Alternatively, we could discuss this on MN, where the majory of users are male, and the demographics allow for discussion with other women of all ages, most of whom have more experience of the topic than fourteen year old boys.

Reddit isn't a place where I'd seek advice or have an ethical debate. It's OK for things like film reviews, things which have cross-cultural appeal, but the demographic is heavily USA based and heavily male - something like a health issue, even if you tag 'UK' onto your search, will just return lots of results from all over the place, irrelevant to the NHS system, for example.

Also, I don't like all the upvoting and downvoting stuff, where you can't post on some subreddits if you don't have enough upvotes; and posts can be deleted on the whim of randoms. I prefer Mumsnet's system of centralised moderation where an unpopular opinion can stand as long as it isn't deliberately inflammatory.

Also, hate the nested style of the threads - find it really difficult to follow.

What's this? Logic and reason? There is no place for this in a discussion about whether or not posters who don't have children should have a board.

It's all about gate-keeping.

If you don't have children, you shouldn't be on MN in the first place and, if you childless posters insist on sullying the place with your presence, at least know your place and be grateful that mothers allow you to post here. How can MNHQ ensure that, should such a board be created, (clutches pearls) anti-natalists and incels won't hear a clarion call and come flooding into MN, thus spoiling it for everyone?

I have been following this thread with interest and caught up last night after a few days break from it.
We seem to have the people against this board bringing up the same points and questions repeatedly, all of which have been answered in detail more than once.

It has also been acknowledged that mumsnet is a parenting site dedicated to parenting, however, the chat forum has gone far beyond that and has a far reaching range of topics. I really don't see what difference adding this board would do to that chat forum that seems to be agitating people so much.

Like with other topics ignore it if you don't use it, adding something will not take away anything from the existing chat forum.As others have pointed out posters seem quite able to moderate boards and threads to weed out unsavoury posters, I doubt just because of the subject people who would post on this board would be unable to do the same.

It has also been acknowledged that mumsnet is a parenting site dedicated to parenting, however, the chat forum has gone far beyond that and has a far reaching range of topics.

And also, as I was mulling over a bit long-windedly earlier in the thread (now well-buried), it doesn't take much of a perspective shift to see a "MNers without children" as a perfectly relevant section to have on a parenting board.

It would likely be used almost exclusively to discuss areas where posters' lives intersect with the cultural norm and expectation (from others, and perhaps from oneself) that at some point in your life you will become a parent and raise children (especially if you're female).

Nobody's going to go on "MNers without children" and ask "Childfree people, what red lipstick are we wearing this season?" or "I'm childless, can someone help me work out what's slowing down my computer?" Instead, threads are likely to have something to do with, e.g., differences in the shape of your life or the planning you need to do depending on whether you have children or not; the way other people's behaviour towards you is affected by your parenting status; feelings about being or not being a parent; or some other topic that IMO belongs squarely in a forum which focuses on parenthood, parenting and children.

In conceptual terms of what it means for something to be about a particular thing, I'm thinking of it a bit like how it's usually accepted that religious freedom laws include the freedom to not have a religion. I think that talking about not being a parent is part of talking about parenting. And I think it's more likely to result in productive conversations if those discussions are held within one of the biggest parenting discussion sites, rather than having people siloed off with no crosstalk between different perspectives.

I think this is being blown somewhat out of proportion.

I can see the uses of this board and I’m sure there was a board on here called MumsNOT at one point - maybe to make it clear that it was mums not, not mum snot. If we do get it though, it’s going to be one reasonably quiet board with threads that I really don’t see showing up for Dave the antinatalist in Google.

Nobody's going to go on "MNers without children" and ask "Childfree people, what red lipstick are we wearing this season?" or "I'm childless, can someone help me work out what's slowing down my computer?" Instead, threads are likely to have something to do with, e.g., differences in the shape of your life or the planning you need to do depending on whether you have children or not; the way other people's behaviour towards you is affected by your parenting status; feelings about being or not being a parent; or some other topic that IMO belongs squarely in a forum which focuses on parenthood, parenting and children.

Yes, we need a place where we can discuss things line this without parents butting in and saying their lives would have been empty and pointless if they hadn’t had children.

Really great posts from @skilpadde and @off in particular. In fact, it has been lovely to see lots of thoughtful posts from posters without children (and also the many supportive posts from mothers who understand the rationale for such a board).

As ever, I must remember that the majority of posters on MN are lovely, and the angry snipers who don't engage their brains before posting are very much in a minority.

Yes, we need a place where we can discuss things line this without parents butting in and saying their lives would have been empty and pointless if they hadn’t had children.

Agreed; I hope the existence of a specific board, with guidelines about being respectful to those the board is set up for (like some other boards have), would clearly telegraph that these are legitimate parenting-related discussions to be having on MN, and that within that particular space, comments of the type you mention aren't helpful. (Well, they're unhelpful in some other contexts, too, but as you say, a place where those comments are more explicitly unwelcome might be useful.)

However, I do think there's some value in recognising that one of the benefits of having such a board specifically on a site like MN is that, sometimes, there may be perspectives a parent may be in a better place to put forward, or there could be parents with relevant insights on particular topics or points raised.

Having a board like that within a large, busy general parenting forum could facilitate that sharing of views and info, within a framework explicitly focused on those who don't have children, while also helping to avoid the polarisation between viewpoints that can come when people are completely separated off (which I think can sometimes contribute towards people adopting some of the more extreme language or views mentioned upthread).

I also wonder if there's some value that comes from posters on any "MNers without children" board being aware that parents, possible future parents, and non-parents alike may read their posts — and whether the existence of the board might make posters elsewhere on the site who are parents also be more conscious that their posts may be read by parents, possible future parents, and non-parents alike.

Meanwhile, it could also give those who have had (or may/may not in future have) children more insight into aspects of the lives and concerns of those without children which are different because they aren't parents (which they may not always discuss IRL with those who are/may become parents), showing them a group of ordinary people who don't have children and aren't anti-natalists or child-haters, just people living their lives and talking about those aspects of parenting/its place in society that affect them, due to their nonparticipation.

Hopefully, given the existing culture and demographics of MN, and some thought given to both the message at the top of the board and the moderation style used, it would remain a thoughtful, civil place to discuss how non-parent status operates within the lives of, mostly, adult women, generally living in the UK. Not that others wouldn't be welcome, but AFAIK that's who makes up the bulk of posters. That demographic doesn't really predominate elsewhere online, and many existing places on the internet where people discuss life without children are coming from quite a different perspective.

If well-moderated, it could help humanise and normalise those without children and their lifestyles, and reflect some of the paths someone's life can take — some of which, on MN, seem to come to a bit of a dead end. If you come to MN before children, you might look at the different parts of the site about relationships, fertility, different ages of children, having adult children, but there's not much about what comes next if children don't happen.

People could argue that it's a parenting site so if you don't become a parent you go somewhere else (or say that there are other boards on MN to chat on, which is true) — I talked about my counterargument to that in my previous post. But this missing "path", of what happens when becoming a parent doesn't happen, feels a bit to me like it reflects our society, and not in a good way — the way that not becoming a parent can feel like unmapped territory, a journey our society didn't prepare us for, where we become invisible and un-catered for.

Just seeing that such a board exists on a parenting site, that that "parenting journey" has also been considered, could be helpful for those thinking about their future WRT parenting.

Or, you know, posters who don't have children can do without the perspectives of those who do. I know it might sound incredible, but it's true.

Yes, why would I as a parent go on the Child Free board any more than I would go on the Black MN board when I am not black? Unnecessary.

I might ask a question on the black MN board about Afro-Caribbean food or culture or something of that nature. To be honest, I do occasionally read posts there but there is nothing that prompts me to post.

I’d be fine with people asking questions like how best to tell an infertile friend you are pregnant or things like that.

It's not that you'd post to that board expecting/hoping to be deluged with responses solely from parents, no… but if one of the arguments against the board is "why would you want a board for people who aren't parents on a parenting forum", then it seems to me that one of the counterarguments worth considering (alongside the larger questions other people raised about whether it is just a parenting forum, and pointing out it's not "a parenting forum" they want it on but MN in particular because they like the community) is whether there are actually potential upsides to it being on a parenting forum rather than somewhere else, for both the forum as a whole and the specific board.

I think MN might be more likely to agree to a board like this if there are arguments actively for it being part of a parenting forum.

When making this argument about potential useful posts from parents, I was thinking of things where a parent might have something actually relevant and helpful to say. Like, this is probably a crap example, but say you post about something annoying and inconsiderate that friends of yours who are parents are doing, that makes no sense and is really pissing you off, a parent might recognise the situation from their own parenting life when they were shitty to friends because of some parenting thing, and (sensitively! recognising that this is the MNWC board and that they are a sort of guest there, and without suggesting you're wrong to be upset) be able to give a possible explanation of the shittiness (not an excuse, but an explanation, something that at least leaves you less baffled by your friends' behaviour).

Since MN does not and will not ban posters from specific boards, there will occasionally be parents responding no matter what… I would hope that with some text at the top, a particular type of moderation, and a particular board subculture, it wouldn't be too bad or too overwhelming, but if parents ever posting at all is completely intolerable, then perhaps MN isn't the place for such a board.

That's a lot of words for a post that is absolutely devoid of anything constructive. or thought-provoking.