Clarification of rules

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

Asking in a new topic to avoid derailing any threads. Is it still against the Mumsnet forum rules to deliberately misgender/deadname a transperson?

You can't say someone's opinion is offensive just because it's different from yours.
It not an opinion it's a scientific fact. Therefore continuing to use after you've been informed of this it is offensive (unless you're just stupid).

Female is used to describe sex

In farming terms you need to know the sex because you can only get baby lambs if the opposite sex sheep are present at the same time
True or ducks cows pigs and any other animal

And animals are quite clued up

Last night down the pub, ( rural community) dog is agitated - "it's men he finds scary"
"What if I identify as a woman ?"
Cue howls or laugher

There seems to be some debate as to the word woman - adult human female or adult human who identified with the gender norms associated typical with the female sex in their culture" but both definitions rely on having a recognised female as the starting point

It's bloody dehumanising to have to ask someone with prostrate cancer symptoms - were you born with a penis? Asking are you male is much less biologically intrusive

Not opinion fact - there is only one category of woman - adult human female.

You can say someone's opinion is offensive. - holocaust deniers

It's less polite to say they are stupid because they can't understand the difference between male and female

I suspect it's more accurate to say they are lying

After Elon Musk removed misgendering from Twitter's terms of service a number of threads appeared just to make a point of posting pictures of transwomen and gleefully misgendering and deadnaming them. There is absolutely no need for this at all other than to bully.

1. This isn't Twitter
2. Bullying? You mean like what transactivists gleefully did to women prior to Elon Musk taking over Twitter?

Mumsnet is institutionally transphobic and is basically irredeemable at this point. It's incredibly depressing because it could have had the power to effect some real feminist change, but instead has become a breeding ground for hatred. I started coming on here about 10 years ago and it definitely wasn't like this then, it's since about 2016 when the transphobia dial started being turned up.

IMHO objecting to me using the word ‘man’ and the pronouns he and him to refer to members of the male sex is manufactured offensiveness. Using the correct sex pronouns isn’t offensive at all. You only consider it offensive because you want to force me to collude in the delusions of others.

an adult human male is a man and an adult human female is a woman. It is impossible to change between the two. That will never change, regardless of what you think.

do you see how this works yet @MerlinsLostMarbles ?

It's transphobic to object to being forcibly gendered ?

It's transphobic to say sex and gender are not the same ?

Or it's a sound bite that's pulled out when you can't think of a response that isn't laughable?

Please note report all actual transphobia - it will be deleted

Only if you believe that women stating reality and their right to their own beliefs is what 'transphobia' is.

The word 'man' is scientifically accurate, it is not objectively offensive, that is exactly how I perceive and would prefer to call any male regardless of how that male would like me to perform regarding them and calling them. But I am prepared to be polite for the purposes of social contract in day to day interactions including on here. Are you equally willing to be prepared to be polite to women, Merlin? Because it's one rule. Pick one. Everyone gets to choose their words regardless of offense or no one does.

And it's all academic anyway, as MNHQ have made their choice and set the rules, and you're arguing vaguely with posters rather than addressing them with any purposeful attempt to negotiate for a different rule.

You are so unbearable rude. How dare you? Cis is extremely offensive as you well know. It is not offensive to use someone's actual sex. How do you actually live like this denying reality, trying to upset others and defending rapists?

What is offensive is to suggest that how someone chooses to dress or act determined their sex. Fuck off with your stereotypes. I'll wear trousers and have short hair and be the boss at work if I want and I'm still female.

Yeah right, of course it is.

Real feminist change is referring to men who rape as 'she' is it?

You wouldn't know real feminist change if it stood in front of you waving a flashing neon sign.

Mumsnet is institutionally transphobic
Call the cops

Cis is extremely offensive as you well know
Opinion, not fact.

You thinking it’s offensive to use the words ‘he’ and ‘him’ about Dylan Mulvaney is opinion not fact

in my opinion those are the correct words to use

I find it astonishing that you are so totally unable to see the world from the point of view of others. If you cover your own eyes do you assume other people can’t see you?

You thinking it’s offensive to use the words ‘he’ and ‘him’ about Dylan Mulvaney is opinion not fact

in my opinion those are the correct words to use

And you're entitled to your opinion. Just like I'm entitled to mine.

Is Mumsnet an 'institution' though? Or is that another word that has been repurposed?

Have to say the hyperbole never fails to amuse.

Crikey, this feels like a breakthrough-go you!

(of course I’m right)

Opinion, not fact.
Fact not opinion. Fact.

So are we respecting that since there are words on both sides that others find offensive we don't use any of those words?

Or are we still working on 'righteous people should get to use whatever words they wish but female people should obey us at all times and use only the words we tell them to or else?'

@GailBlancheViola if using "institutional" then the implication is that niandraladesand thinks that the employees of MN and the MNHQ workplace is institutionally transphobic. Not the collection of anonymous posters posting independently from each other on the talk forums, because they are obviously not an institution.

Quick question - do you really think Dylan Mulvaney is a woman?

He was a gay man before he started his 'days of girlhood' series.

At what point did he become a woman exactly?

Musk has shifted the online Overton window, for sure.

Talking about a public figure on Mumsnet isn’t bullying though, even if the tone of the conversation isn’t kind.

If lots of people find something offensive I don't think you can call that opinion

It's a fact that they feel offended

Of course women don't know their own minds do they ....

I said upthread, I’m ok with people calling me cis. It’s a handy indicator that they’re idiots and means I would never be interested in their views on women’s rights, but if they want to apply that word to me they can knock themselves out

I wonder if they’d return the favour regarding using the correct pronouns when talking about men?