Clarification of rules

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

Asking in a new topic to avoid derailing any threads. Is it still against the Mumsnet forum rules to deliberately misgender/deadname a transperson?

You realise all trans people aren't one person, right, that they're individuals like everyone else?!
Anyway, my post was about the use of he all the way through the threads.
Clearly seems to be OK on here more and more

Merlin got told. Thanks Mumsnet. xxx

to be honest, I'm increasingly in favour of free speech, and as such think posters should be able to use 'cis' (while being challenged on it of course), in the same way that I think I should be able to use the correct pronouns for people

I'm secure enough in my views that I can take the odd 'cis'. A Catholic calling me a heretic wouldn't make me start believing in god, the odd poster insisting I have a gender identity isn't going to start me believing in gender woo.

it's MNHQ's site of course, so they'll behave as they wish

Your comment was SPECIFICALLY about Dylan Mulvaney. Dylan Mulvaney is the exact same Dylan Mulvaney on all the threads about Dylan Mulvaney.

I’m used to teenagers suddenly changing direction and pretending they didn’t say the thing they just said, it doesn’t work on me.

I think MNHQ could tell this thread didn’t have the best intentions……….disingenuous to not read the rules - takes a minute - and to ask other MN’s what they are rather than MNHQ

to be honest, I'm increasingly in favour of free speech, and as such think posters should be able to use 'cis' (while being challenged on it of course), in the same way that I think I should be able to use the correct pronouns for people

the problem is, because I'd be ok with that too, is that oftentimes "cis" is used as either a slur, or to push home the point that they are trying to colonise the word woman.

Frankly? I'm fine calling people the pronouns/name they ask me to. Pretty much like a friend of mine called Michael seriously loathes being called Mike and always asks people not to do it. So we, his friends don't. Idiots in the pub? not so much.

If i ask someone not to call me 'cis' i expect not to have to remind them. If i do? i will take any actions i think appropriate to drive my point home to them. Which may or may not include "misgendering" or "deadnaming" them as an example of why they should pack it in.

Your comment was SPECIFICALLY about Dylan Mulvaney. Dylan Mulvaney is the exact same Dylan Mulvaney on all the threads about Dylan Mulvaney.
Yes, it was. And the use of he. Not the name Dylan.
You OK?

Yes it is.

Shame you can't stick to the rules of your thread isn't it?

Really? How useful to know this.
So, while you're here, could you define what a women is?
Many thanks.

Jesus Christ on a cracker- Dylan uses the exact SAME name Dylan used when identifying as a man, so why shouldn’t people use the exact SAME pronouns?

R U OK? ‘Hun’?

Do what you like - don't pretend you don't know that she's trans though, bit of a bizarre take to be like well as is using the same name, why can't I use the same pronouns?
As I said, do what you like but its not exactly hard to understand.

As I said, do what you like but its not exactly hard to understand.
Well it is for me. And I have bad eyesight, so can't always read badges.
So I have to go on common sense.

But Merlin has referred to a Mumsnet forum member as a “cis man”- I would imagine this is against their wishes (although I can’t speak for him) and Merlin had not been deleted as no-one has been petty enough to report that post.

Merlin can argue about meanings all they like but maybe remember to follow the rules of the forum in future or risk deletion.

The same risk for everyone really.

"Cisgender" "affronts many feminists" despite having been in English dictionaries for a long time, yet these same feminists are happy to intentionally misgender and deadname a transperson with the knowledge they would not want this? And the same feminists may also automatically associate transpeople with things such as "AGP" or "furries" etc which can be extremely offensive.

Fun fact: The Latin prefix "cis" is also used in other contexts besides gender (chemistry, biology, geography etc) and it goes back centuries.

I understand "TERF" can be offensive but there's no reason why cisgender should be. It's a valid word with a clear meaning and can be used for clarification when discussing gender.

If the man is actually trans then I apologise.

Cunt has been in the dictionary since dictionaries were founded.

Yes. and dictionaries do note this word is vulgar/offensive along with the meaning.

Cisgender is not noted to be offensive by any dictionary I've checked its definition on.

The word 'man' is also not offensive by any dictionary.

However if people say that they do not identify with this label or identity and would prefer others not to call them such, should they be ignored too?

"is actually trans"

But but but...acceptance without exception!

Did you have a question for @YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet @MerlinsLostMarbles? Because it looks to me like you've just posted a long screed to tell her she's wrong.

I know for a fact there are plenty of other places on the internet which welcome the term cisgender. Would you like some suggestions?

That is because it is chemistry terminology.

I could say someone has an 'activated complex' in a derisory way and the dictionary wouldn't say it was offensive.

I could call men who keep posting on the feminist board 'adulterants' as an insult and the dictionary wouldn't say it was offensive.

This intrigues me, the common response (as you’ve demonstrated here) to people who are offended by being referred to as Cis is to say it’s been in the dictionary for years so should be accepted.

How do you feel about other terms which have a basis in science and are used as a derisory term to describe a group of people? Thinking about s*c for people with physical disabilities or rd for people with learning disabilities? I think most of us accept that these are awful phrases which should never be used - what makes cis a) suddenly trendy and b) acceptable?

Also, using phrases like ‘fun fact’ makes you sound like a prat.

I would guess one reason cisgender offends feminists is that it is making an assumption about their gender - assumptions about how people might behave as a result of their sex

And mostly feminism is about rejecting gender , rejecting the idea that sex should predetermine your role / behaviour - rejecting the idea that your sex should determine any thing about you apart from the obvious physical things

So by dividing the world into cis and trans you eliminate those who don't have a gender identity or force women to accept gender - the weapon that has been used to keep women down for centuries

‘Cisgender’ makes no sense if you are describing people who don’t have a gender identity (ie most of the posters on FWR) nor those whose sex was recorded at birth rather than assigned, which is only relevant to the tiny percentage of people who are born with ambiguous genitalia (and no access to medical testing) and the even tinier number of people who are discovered to have a phenotypical-genotypical mismatch (which generally becomes apparent at puberty, eg CAIS, the first indication being failure to begin menses by 16).

I don’t find it a particularly offensive term just a largely irrelevant one (although I accept that it quickly becomes offensive when other people insist on using it to describe those who have rejected the description).

I’m pretty close to being a free speech absolutist (excluding incitement to violence and deliberate defamation) and that means that being offensive and being offended must have equal value.

No one has the right not to be offended - ie you can call me a bigot if you must, just don’t be surprised if I call you (general you) a silly sausage for believing in gendered souls in response.

Cisgender is not noted to be offensive by any dictionary I've checked its definition on.
It offends me @MerlinsLostMarbles so stop using it.