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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

How to discuss BBC 100 women list?

232 replies

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 07:53

Hello

I've seen two threads attempting to discuss this list deleted today. Could you possibly give guidance about how the feminist issue of men taking the place of women in a list of women can be discussed on the feminism board without the thread being deleted?

OP posts:
Franca123 · 07/12/2021 13:21

This is all quite funny despite it being so serious. I have figured out what was wrong with this thread title. But I presume I musn't say what is wrong with it because that'll mean I get deleted too. It's hilarious! Why would anyone be offended by this? How is it not civil? How is it not constructive?! How do people handle everyday life if they're so offended by this type of thing. I really think MNHQ would benefit from getting their copies of 1984 off the bookshelves, dusting it off and sitting down to re-read.

Datun · 07/12/2021 13:21

HQ, The law commission are currently involved in this very issue. What we can and what we cannot say. They have concluded

We do not agree with GIRES that such discussion necessarily amounts to ‘vilification’ or ‘dehumanises’ trans people, still less that it encourages others to do so. Indeed, we think that characterising it as GIRES does demonstrates the risk that without explicit protection, such discourse – which has been recognised as protected speech – risks being perceived, reported, and potentially investigated as hate speech.”

They're saying that normal discourse needs to be protected because if it isn't, it will be deliberately misrepresented. They are using GIRES attempt to do so as an example.

I believe you have every right to allow women to use the word men, when they are discussing women's rights being taken over by them.

Take a look at what the law commission are saying. They are fully alive to the fact that women are being silenced on the basis of using language that some people don't like.

Letting women talk freely about this means you have the law on your side.

Correct terms and language cannot be deemed uncivil on the basis that some people don't like them.

The Law Commission highlighted that the rulings in Miller and Forstater have now made it clear that the expression of “gender critical” views is protected under human rights laws. The issue, therefore, is not whether such expression should be protected, it is whether the stirring-up offences would require a provision to make clear it is protected.”

It concluded that it would

The law commission is going further than protecting the belief of gender critical women, they are allowing it to be expressed freely. This is because transactivists have decided that you can hold a belief, but you can't express it.

The law commission is saying that is simply not the case. They are going out of their way to say so.

sex-matters.org/posts/the-legal-system/law-commission-recommends-protection-for-gender-critical-views-from-chilling-effect/

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/12/2021 13:24

The Law Commission highlighted that the rulings in Miller and Forstater have now made it clear that the expression of “gender critical” views is protected under human rights laws. The issue, therefore, is not whether such expression should be protected, it is whether the stirring-up offences would require a provision to make clear it is protected.”

It concluded that it would

The law commission is going further than protecting the belief of gender critical women, they are allowing it to be expressed freely. This is because transactivists have decided that you can hold a belief, but you can't express it.

The law commission is saying that is simply not the case. They are going out of their way to say so.

That's encouraging.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 13:29

Thank you @Datun

I think this is a really important point and that MNHQ need to take a review of their policy here. They have provided a great forum for gender critical discussion and women's rights. Maybe there is room for going further given recent develops such as those previously mentioned in the thread. Thanks.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 07/12/2021 13:32

@MichaelMumsnet

In hosting these discussions we want to encourage civil debate - the Maya Forstater case established a protected belief, but is also concerned with the expression of that belief. We feel that our guidelines cover this and that it's possible to make pretty much any gender critical point whilst keeping the conversation constructive and civil.
Is there any likelihood of that being revisited in light of the continued and increasing linguistic gymnastics being demanded of us all?

It is obviously not possible to make any GC comment and to be civil and constructive as, sometimes, it is the very logic, constructiveness, of the point being made that earns a deletion.

Not to mention the unpalateable thoughts about just who it is that is monitoring such threads and spending their time reporting specific posts. That remains by far the most agregious act of incivility, changes the nature of most threads it occurs on and so prevents constructive conversation completely!

It feels like we don't have a level playing field with known boundaries. More like a space with invisible traps and ever changing, differently interpreted rules.

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2021 13:49

@MichaelMumsnet Can I ask why the link to the talk guidelines titled Sex and Gender Talk Guidelines still reads as 'trans rights moderation policy'.? Many women on this board (including myself) would argue that what we are discussing here is women's rights. To call it 'trans rights policy', it comea across as a deliberate position taken by HNHQ on the issue. Link here - www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

In addition, I have mentioned to many mods over the last few months that the wording in the talk guidelines which reads -

• We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

Comes across as derogatory or aggressive attacks against feminist/GC feminists being allowed. For parity, it should surely read - 'We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.'

A mod sometime ago said these would be discussed by the team but I've heard nothing more on the boards. Can you please advise when these concerns are likely to be corrected?

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 14:33

Why has the latest thread on this topic been deleted? And why did it take so long for it to be deleted?

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2021 14:34

Also, there has been an extraordinary amount of deletions today and yesterday. It's quite obvious that there is deliberate targeting going on and in some cases, seems to be deliberate targeting of specific posters. This surely doesn't come under the umbrella of 'civil and respectful debate' and is disallowed under the talk guidelines as malicious reporting. Regular posters on here generally don't report any but the most outrageous posts in an effort to enable discussion. If we reported every post which goes into personal attacks because the women here believe in single sex spaces, there would be ridiculously large amounts of deletions - some of the posters are outrageously aggressive and derogatory in their manner, quite often to factual statements such as human beings, as a dimorphic species, cannot change sex. That it is not derogatory or a value judgement, just an actual established fact.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 14:36

We've always been at war with Eastasia I assume MNHQ?

Waitwhat23 · 07/12/2021 14:36

This is the message on the (latest) deleted thread -

'Message from MNHQ: We've taken this thread down because the the first post breaks our Talk guidelines. We'll get in touch with the OP off the boards to discuss an edit and potential reinstatement of the thread.'

Has anyone actually ever seen a deleted thread being edited and reinstated?

ButtonSister · 07/12/2021 14:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

ButtonSister · 07/12/2021 14:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

ButtonSister · 07/12/2021 14:40

Speedy deletion there

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 07/12/2021 14:41

Dear god, operating under the level of coercive control MNHQ are subjecting themselves to must be exhausting

OP posts:
Franca123 · 07/12/2021 14:42

I can totally imagine what @ButtonSister said. There's a specific expletive bursting it's way out of me. Being told to be a nice little girl really makes me want to swear.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 14:44

This is disgraceful. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

OhDear2200 · 07/12/2021 14:44

@MNHQ deleted again Sad

You are sadly doing what you can to make this a place not welcome to women who believe in fighting for women’s rights.

ButtonSister · 07/12/2021 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

ViaGellia · 07/12/2021 14:44

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Hello

I've seen two threads attempting to discuss this list deleted today. Could you possibly give guidance about how the feminist issue of men taking the place of women in a list of women can be discussed on the feminism board without the thread being deleted?

Make that three threads deleted
MichaelMumsnet · 07/12/2021 14:44

We're committed to hosting discussions around sex and gender on Mumsnet. We ask that people bear in mind the Talk guidelines when posting.

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 14:47

By people, you mean women. Women need to shut up and do as we're told by men.

ButtonSister · 07/12/2021 14:48

Pointing out that different moderators may have a different interpretation of talk guidelines is breaching talk guidelines?

Saucery · 07/12/2021 14:49

It’s an impressive bit of mental gymnastics.

We are allowed to say, in general, that transwomen were born male, because otherwise they wouldn’t be transwomen.

But if we apply that to a list of people that includes transwomen we are therefore being specific about individuals and not respecting their right to identify as women,

Infuriatingly neat and tailored to the nonsense guidelines drawn up by the Watchers and Reporters. Means no thread about this list or similar ones can stand. Ever. 👏

Negligee · 07/12/2021 14:50

@MichaelMumsnet, a man telling women to shut about men encroaching on women's lists is a really bad look.

SolasAnla · 07/12/2021 14:51

@MNHQ

Would it help if we all just replaces the objected words with penis or vulva?

Even post medical intervention these two words would remain factual.

It may help cut down the moding?

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