An algorithm to remove 'Karen'?

[BIWI]

It's a horrible misogynistic and ageist term.

I know you have an algorithm that deletes posts that mention certain other websites; is it possible to have an algorithm that at the very least deletes the word if it's being used? And then automatically posts to say that a word has been deleted because it breaks Talk Guidelines?

(I appreciate that if anyone is on the Baby Names board asking about 'Karen' that might be more difficult!)

The thing is, there are posters who don't seem to realise just what a horrible thing it is to say, but then the rest of their post is filled with people calling them on it, so they never really get an answer to their question.

It would be ironic to ban the term Karen whilst the AIBU topic exists. I was of the understanding that "Karen" referred to someone complaining about something unreasonably. I agree that it's a horrible term, but my favourite thing about Mumsnet is how open it is.

You said you find arguments against it "questionable", whatever that means. One argument, which the OP does not seem to have addressed, is that racial slurs are not auto removed so why should Karen be?

And how do you solve the issue if corraleral damage, where people will not be able to talk about people named Karen or mention it as a possible baby name? It's a perfectly valid question, don't see what's off about it.

@Serevai

I also feel that people who use this term forget how bad and horrid it would feel if their names were used in this way. I can't imagine my name being a term used to describe an unappealing character trait/personality

Can you also imagine how appalling it is to read and/or be on the receiving end of racist slurs and racisms whether overt or covert.

Can you also imagine how appalling it is to read and/or be on the receiving end of racist slurs and racisms whether overt or covert

It must be awful, there is no doubt about it, but does it make you feel better when other people are being unreasonably insulted?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Can you also imagine how appalling it is to read and/or be on the receiving end of racist slurs and racisms whether overt or covert

It must be awful, there is no doubt about it, but does it make you feel better when other people are being unreasonably insulted?

Do you think calling someone a Karen is the same or even worse as calling them the N word or the P word, as was suggested on a recent thread?

@peachgreen

It's very telling that there are calls to remove the word "Karen" - a term that is usually applied to straight white cis women, ie the MN majority - but not the homophobic, racist and transphobic slurs used here on a regular basis.

Thankfully, MNHQ remove those when reported. Not sure why "Karen" deserves special treatment.

Oh don't you know, according to a previous poster anyone who doesn't see why Karen is the worst possible slur that exists is not called Karen 😂🙄

No. That’s not what I’m saying. Nowhere have I drawn a comparison between the two.
What I’m asking is does it make you feel better when someone else is insulted?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

No. That’s not what I’m saying. Nowhere have I drawn a comparison between the two. What I’m asking is does it make you feel better when someone else is insulted?

No, and I don't see anyone saying it does.

But Karen should not be treated as though it is worse than racial slurs.

But Karen should not be treated as though it is worse than racial slurs.

Especially since it's used as a slur for a behaviour and not a protected characteristic.

As I've pointed out on this thread many timed, it's not even on the same playing field as a racist, sexist, ageist or ableist etc slur.

At best you could equate it with 'thug' or 'idiot' or 'snowflake' or 'cocklodger'. I.e a word you'd call someone displaying behaviours you don't like / agree with. Displaying behaviours you want to shame or call out.

All of those words are insulting and horrible to various extents... but they aren't used to put down / insult an entire class of people with a protected characteristic like the N word or P word, or even the B word.

Trying to pretend the K word is used to insult an entire group of people who share the same protected characteristic is madness.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Can you also imagine how appalling it is to read and/or be on the receiving end of racist slurs and racisms whether overt or covert

It must be awful, there is no doubt about it, but does it make you feel better when other people are being unreasonably insulted?

Oh it must be awful? Just only awful?

@SweetPetrichor

Don’t be daft, how can you sensor a name. Karen’s gonna Karen.

@severelysound

But Karen should not be treated as though it is worse than racial slurs.

Especially since it's used as a slur for a behaviour and not a protected characteristic.

As I've pointed out on this thread many timed, it's not even on the same playing field as a racist, sexist, ageist or ableist etc slur.

At best you could equate it with 'thug' or 'idiot' or 'snowflake' or 'cocklodger'. I.e a word you'd call someone displaying behaviours you don't like / agree with. Displaying behaviours you want to shame or call out.

All of those words are insulting and horrible to various extents... but they aren't used to put down / insult an entire class of people with a protected characteristic like the N word or P word, or even the B word.

Trying to pretend the K word is used to insult an entire group of people who share the same protected characteristic is madness.

Absolutely this.

It's not putting down ALL women of a certain age, as is often claimed by MNers. It only refers to certain women who behave in a certain way. It's ridiculous for anyone to say it's somehow equal to racism. IT IS NOT.

It also shows the ignorance of those who seek to equate it to racism and tells you all you need to know about where they are with being anti-racism.

Thanks for raising this Biwi. We do, obviously, agree that this term is often used in a derogatory way but we've never auto deleted words on Mumsnet because, as has been pointed out upthread, algorithms tend to be imperfect and in any case people find workarounds - the best thing is to report it's use and we'll take a look asap and certainly delete it where it's used as an attack or put down.

So no special treatment. Good shout.

@Acarp

So no special treatment. Good shout.

I was never, ever, asking for special treatment. Why on earth would you think that?

Thanks @JustineMumsnet.

@BIWI

You want Karen to be auto deleted when other, far worse terms are not. Special treatment.

Maybe the name should be changed to a male name like Ken 🤪

On the most recent of the million Karen threads on here, someone directly compared Karen to the N and P words, which they typed out uncensored. Mumsnet did not automatically filter them out*

I saw that too. Fully typed out. & On another recent thread to do with race, on the Feminism Board. They know they can get away with it. Abhorrent.

Just so you know, we're working on filters and auto alerts so that unacceptable terms like the N-word never appear on site.
In the meantime, please keep reporting and we'll get straight on it.

@MichaelMumsnet

Just so you know, we're working on filters and auto alerts so that unacceptable terms like the N-word never appear on site. In the meantime, please keep reporting and we'll get straight on it.

But not Karen?

@Wed8pril Karen is not an "unacceptable term". It's just sometimes used in a context you don't like. It does not have the long history of violence associated with it that racial or homophobic slurs do. Nobody has been lynched whilst being called a Karen. They are not the same thing.

There are many, many posts about people called Karen - singers, actors, characters on telly etc, plus brands that get regularly mentioned in S&B and a speaker who is discussed in FWR. Plus it still crops up in baby name threads.

The word Karen is not in itself unacceptable - all those uses above are entirely acceptable. Arguably, threads talking about why the use of the term 'Karen' as a stereotype/insult sound also be deemed acceptable (or should this entire thread be autodeleted, because the number of mentions of Karen?)

It is the unacceptable use as an insult that is the problem, not the correct use. And autodelete wouldn't be able to differentiate (that's very core of the 'auto' part, is it not?

@AuntieStella

There are many, many posts about people called Karen - singers, actors, characters on telly etc, plus brands that get regularly mentioned in S&B and a speaker who is discussed in FWR. Plus it still crops up in baby name threads.

The word Karen is not in itself unacceptable - all those uses above are entirely acceptable. Arguably, threads talking about why the use of the term 'Karen' as a stereotype/insult sound also be deemed acceptable (or should this entire thread be autodeleted, because the number of mentions of Karen?)

It is the unacceptable use as an insult that is the problem, not the correct use. And autodelete wouldn't be able to differentiate (that's very core of the 'auto' part, is it not?

What AuntieStella said!