An algorithm to remove 'Karen'?

[BIWI]

It's a horrible misogynistic and ageist term.

I know you have an algorithm that deletes posts that mention certain other websites; is it possible to have an algorithm that at the very least deletes the word if it's being used? And then automatically posts to say that a word has been deleted because it breaks Talk Guidelines?

(I appreciate that if anyone is on the Baby Names board asking about 'Karen' that might be more difficult!)

The thing is, there are posters who don't seem to realise just what a horrible thing it is to say, but then the rest of their post is filled with people calling them on it, so they never really get an answer to their question.

You know it's possible to care about more than one thing at a time, right?

You know you could actually look at what I was replying to, right?

@Jackofallsorts

What's wrong with calling someone a "Karen"?

The term karen is so widely hated here because the posters on MN tend to identify more with the woman who is being called Karen, than they do the ethic minority, lower paid or lower class person that is being targeted by her.

@Makhiaman

The term karen is so widely hated here because the posters on MN tend to identify more with the woman who is being called Karen, than they do the ethic minority, lower paid or lower class person that is being targeted by her.

You know it's possible to hate all of that, don't you?

But the whole Karen thing is a fairly recent thing on MN and not often seen as the nasty slur that it is - unlike other racist/ageist/homophobic/ableist/sexist stuff is. You can see from posts on this thread that so many don't seem to understand how nasty it is.

I absolutely deplore anyone who makes any comment about ethnic minorities, or people because of their age or sexual orientation, or any kind of disability. That doesn't mean I don't also have a problem with the Karen slur.

@Malvarrosa

BluebellsRosesDaffodills: How do you think people called Wayne or Chantelle feel?

How do they feel about what? If you're making an allegation of equivalence, please post some evidence to show how your examples are equivalent. Thanks.

The names are associated with Shameless type characters/ the Slobs on Harry Enfield….

Do you see the ‘bastard’ in ‘LTB’ as sexist to men? Or do you just see it as a word for someone who’s behaved like an arsehole?
I don’t personally see the term Karen as sexist to women, I see it as a word for someone who’s used their status and/or privilege to belittle/harass someone they perceive as lower than themselves.
For me, I don’t care either way about the term. I’ve never called someone a Karen, never been called one, never paid much notice to it. What I do care about are the kind of people who seem to care more about defending the ‘Karen’ from being called a Karen, than they do about calling out her behaviour.
They’re the people who need a good look in the mirror.

Women are always below men in the pecking order. Always. Yoko Ono was spot on.

Mumsnet is a place where, mostly, women come to chat.

Anyone writing off a woman because she is a woman should be questioned.

Please someone tell me the accepted equivalent internet jargon for the male "Karen"? Can you?

Please someone tell me the accepted equivalent internet jargon for the male "Karen"? Can you?

Gammon?

Gammon? only heard of it in reference to Cameron and the pigs head.

It was mostly popular around that time, stuck around a lot on social media for a couple of years to describe men that were tory types and now has mostly faded out.
I imagine the term ‘Karen’ will do the same.

@CatJumperTwat

You know it's possible to care about more than one thing at a time, right?

You know you could actually look at what I was replying to, right?

You know people aren't psychic, right? That's why quoting is so helpful.

Don’t be daft, how can you sensor a name. Karen’s gonna Karen.

@SweetPetrichor

Don’t be daft, how can you sensor a name. Karen’s gonna Karen.

I see what you did there. So true. That’s really karening behaviour (if there’s such a word). Karens will Karen.

Please someone tell me the accepted equivalent internet jargon for the male "Karen"? Can you?

Like has been pointed out... if males exhibit "Karen" behaviour you can call them a Karen.

If you go on the relevant subreddit, type 'male' into the search bar, you can scroll, and scroll, and scroll through the examples of 'male Karens'. If that sort of thing floats your boat.

The viraliest of viral ones are typically female, yes. But they started going really viral because they were a particular breed of the 'entitled' who also fit a trope that's been around for ages - the white woman needing to be saved from something that doesn't warrant saving, or demanding something has to be done about something (in the passive tense). And sometimes in dramatic ways, too, hysterical behaviour and weaponised tears.

Why we don't see the same amount of viraliest of viral ones for men, I could only speculate. Probably because of the way we have been socialised since birth? I've never seen a man IRL get hysterical, pretend to cry, and roll around on the floor because someone won't leave a shop and they want them to. I have seen men IRL get aggressive and violent when people aren't doing what they want them to, though. We have some (a lot) of names for that.

But again, this is one of the arms and legs of what it was originally and what it still means.

And is any of it really relevant to the point of the OP? Calling someone a Karen isn't nice and behaving in the way where someone feels the need to call you it (accurately) isn't nice.

But a lot of things fit that definition and we don't call for them to be auto-censored.

Can I suggest adding the word thug to the list of requests since it's sometimes sexist, ageist, classist, derogatory and nasty in all the same ways as the slur in question?

Plus it would make the headlines and memes look slightly better if we banned something alongside just that word. Less of an internet meme impersonating an internet meme by behaving in exactly the same way the internet meme is attempting to accuse them of.....?

Sorry to be pedantic but algorithms don't remove words. You're simply requesting a filter or bot to have the word censored or deleted upon typing.

Internet forums like MN which still lack an editing function in 2021 (mind boggling tbh) are in no way capable of programming and implementing algorithms.

@severelysound

Please someone tell me the accepted equivalent internet jargon for the male "Karen"? Can you?

Like has been pointed out... if males exhibit "Karen" behaviour you can call them a Karen.

If you go on the relevant subreddit, type 'male' into the search bar, you can scroll, and scroll, and scroll through the examples of 'male Karens'. If that sort of thing floats your boat.

The viraliest of viral ones are typically female, yes. But they started going really viral because they were a particular breed of the 'entitled' who also fit a trope that's been around for ages - the white woman needing to be saved from something that doesn't warrant saving, or demanding something has to be done about something (in the passive tense). And sometimes in dramatic ways, too, hysterical behaviour and weaponised tears.

Why we don't see the same amount of viraliest of viral ones for men, I could only speculate. Probably because of the way we have been socialised since birth? I've never seen a man IRL get hysterical, pretend to cry, and roll around on the floor because someone won't leave a shop and they want them to. I have seen men IRL get aggressive and violent when people aren't doing what they want them to, though. We have some (a lot) of names for that.

But again, this is one of the arms and legs of what it was originally and what it still means.

And is any of it really relevant to the point of the OP? Calling someone a Karen isn't nice and behaving in the way where someone feels the need to call you it (accurately) isn't nice.

But a lot of things fit that definition and we don't call for them to be auto-censored.

Can I suggest adding the word thug to the list of requests since it's sometimes sexist, ageist, classist, derogatory and nasty in all the same ways as the slur in question?

Plus it would make the headlines and memes look slightly better if we banned something alongside just that word. Less of an internet meme impersonating an internet meme by behaving in exactly the same way the internet meme is attempting to accuse them of.....?

Oh my! One of the best post I’ve read on Mumsnet. Very well said.

Less of an internet meme impersonating an internet meme by behaving in exactly the same way the internet meme is attempting to accuse them of.....?

[quote severelysound]**@BIWI

	No personal attacks
	No posts that break the law, including hate speech of any kind
	No trolling, misleading or deliberately inflammatory behaviour
	No trollhunting
	No spamming

Are you saying it's a personal attack?

I had to google a clear definition and on reflection, yeah I can see it. But if we're using this definition (which Karen would fit under) then it also includes 70% of replies to 70% of posts on AIBU? And pretty much everything I said in my post you claimed didn't apply.

Personal attacks often involve someone making damaging remarks relating to somebody’s lifestyle or choices. These types of attack can include comments that question a person’s intelligence, values, integrity, motivations or decisions.

Though the two examples of attacks they give are Revenge Porn and Spreading Misleading or Malicious Gossip... which is sort of next level compared to being called a Karen by a stranger on the internet.

If you mean it's ageism then I'm not sure how you're drawing that conclusion.

Ageism has to concern the age, surely? "You're too old to be working" is ageism. Or an age-related slur or attack etc. I could find a couple but I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.

But Karen does not = age. Usually Karen = behaviour or attitude, right? And while the stereotype arguably has an age-bracket, it's not like you'd call any person of that age That Word just because they are that age.

Like 'Snowflake' means needs special treatment, and while the stereotype is usually a child and therefore has an age-bracket, you wouldn't call any child a snowflake just because they are that age.

Just to be clear, it's not something I actually use. Never had a need to, because I'd rather argue with the logic or attitude or behaviour than call the person a name. So I'm not "defending" the term Karen... I'm arguing for the slippery slope that is calling for algorithms to censor anything that offends you?

Whatever logic you have used for Karen equally applies to Cocklodger. It's a derogatory term to describe a male of a certain age who displays certain attitudes or behaviours. Swap the male for female and you have the definition of Karen.

So I don't see how you can censor one and not the other. Like I said, slippery slope. [/quote]
This.

and in addition to that, I love the irony because when you look at the definition of a 'Karen" :
" Karen is a pejorative term for a white woman seeming to be entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal"

One might think the OP is actually acting in that way, requesting a change based on her interpretation of moral grounds.

Many things are offending in our society. This is what a society is, a mix of good and bad. MN is authentic in that way. Offensive behaviour are not allowed, but adding rule about not being able to say this or talk about that is very dangerous

We can see Karen references in any way we like, but they have actually brought changes and improved legislation because thanks to these Karen memes and trends on social media, they have opened political and social discussion and a law was created thanks to the Karen trend, the CAREN act, Caution Against Racially Exploitative Non-Emergencies , against the fabrication of racially biased emergency reports.
www.csulb.edu/college-of-business/legal-resource-center/article/how-karens-created-the-proposed-caren-act

In that sense, talking and mentioning Karens was beneficial .

Bottom line, no, @BIWI , MN should not create an algorithm to remove Karen references .

I think there was a similar thread years ago about Wendy.🤔

Wow. I’m loving these contributions. Another excellent post.

@GordonPym

So you're asking to speak to a manager about removing Karen from posts automatically?

@CottonSock

People who think there are worse things on here are probably not called Karen?

If I was, I'd still think racial slurs are worse than calling someone a karen.

I don't like the Karen thing but disagree it should be automatically censored. I find it odd that this name in particular has become synonymous with a certain type of entitled behaviour. In the UK at least, it's more likely to be the name of the employee than the person demanding to speak to the manager. I'm not even sure the 'Karen' behaviour I've seen in viral videos translates to the UK. The closest I've seen to it when I worked in retail was generally from properly 'upper crust' people with some sort of substance abuse issue.

Well I agree with you OP. It's such a shitty anti feminist way to silence a woman, whether she's right or she's wrong, it shuts her down. So any woman using that to silence another woman, slow clap. And if Entitled Behavior is a big problem, look at men's entitled behavior first.

It is shorthand for "women - know your place’
Yes exactly. It’s offensive on that basis. And to clarify I don’t think personal terms of abuse are ok to use on here, whatever protected characteristic they are punching at. Maybe if removal were automated it would free up moderators to make more nuanced judgement calls, or help them to take out those posts which are clearly guideline breaking but which don’t use any easily-automatically-spottable key banned words wnd rely on reports and then human action to remove?
I’d like to know how this currently works, what (if any) words are already being automatically deleted?