An algorithm to remove 'Karen'?

[BIWI]

It's a horrible misogynistic and ageist term.

I know you have an algorithm that deletes posts that mention certain other websites; is it possible to have an algorithm that at the very least deletes the word if it's being used? And then automatically posts to say that a word has been deleted because it breaks Talk Guidelines?

(I appreciate that if anyone is on the Baby Names board asking about 'Karen' that might be more difficult!)

The thing is, there are posters who don't seem to realise just what a horrible thing it is to say, but then the rest of their post is filled with people calling them on it, so they never really get an answer to their question.

@BIWI

Yet you're suggesting that Karen gets special treatment over actual racial slurs

Absolutely not at all.

Then why start a thread requesting the auto-deletion if Karen and not any of the far worse racial slurs that get thrown around here?

No one is calling forthright women with valid points Karen's.

And you know this how? Are you present every time this slur is used? Or are you someone using it?

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

No one is calling forthright women with valid points Karen's.

And you know this how? Are you present every time this slur is used? Or are you someone using it?

You assume then that only white women and those who complain about nonsense, trying to abuse others on racial grounds or some perceived superiority are the epitome of women who are demonstrating how to be forthright in solid defensible grounds?

Wow!

So many unnecessary words, when I asked a very simple question. So, it would be safe to assume that the answer would be "no"

Thanks!

If you’re not acting entitled then you won’t be called a Karen. It’s a word for an entitled, privileged woman. And I’ve seen women of colour be called Karen. So it’s not only used for white women.

But god forbid white women be offended. We must diligently and urgently write an algorithm to remove this horrendous word.

This entire post and asking for an actual algorithm to automatically remove the word is exactly Karen behaviour. We really are our own worst enemy sometimes.

@MarshmallowSwede 100% hit the nail on the head here.

I see that OP still hasn't been able to explain why Karen should get special treatment over actual racial slurs.

Actual racial slurs should be deleted immediately and hopefully in the main they are - and I'm confident they are when reported. Or are there examples where they haven't been?

@Chicchicchicchiclana

Actual racial slurs should be deleted immediately and hopefully in the main they are - and I'm confident they are when reported. Or are there examples where they haven't been?

Have you not read the experiences of many posters here or are you saying they are lying and that you want them to prove they are not lying?

No, I confess I haven't read the whole thread. I'll go back through it now.

Many have shared that in their experience Mumsnet is slow to remove racial slurs and dig whistle posts. Eventually some of these are removed.

There is a Blackmusnetter area where several posters documented that some of these slurs are not removed. Many feel aggrieved that racist views are not adequately dealt with on Mumsnet.

@Chicchicchicchiclana

Actual racial slurs should be deleted immediately and hopefully in the main they are - and I'm confident they are when reported. Or are there examples where they haven't been?

They do tend to get deleted eventually. But they are not automatically filtered out, like the OP is proposing with Karen.

Also haven't heard any suggestions on how we get around not being able to talk about people actually named Karen.

I do see problems with a Karen deleting algorithm, yes.

There are millions of real, non-racist, non-"demanding", non-entitled, non-whiny (whatever any of that means ... very subjective as it's almost like saying middle aged white women should never moan?) women called Karen of all races.

Perhaps we should agree to get round the problem of calling people racist where they are and not using Karen as shorthand. I dunno.

@Chicchicchicchiclana

I do see problems with a Karen deleting algorithm, yes.

There are millions of real, non-racist, non-"demanding", non-entitled, non-whiny (whatever any of that means ... very subjective as it's almost like saying middle aged white women should never moan?) women called Karen of all races.

Perhaps we should agree to get round the problem of calling people racist where they are and not using Karen as shorthand. I dunno.

It’s not about white middle class women who moan. It’s the nature of their moan. The abusive nature of their baseless moaning, anchored on the belief that the deserve special treatment, more honour and deference than any other. It’s the weaponising of tears, of their sex and of their whiteness.

@MarshmallowSwede

If you’re not acting entitled then you won’t be called a Karen. It’s a word for an entitled, privileged woman. And I’ve seen women of colour be called Karen. So it’s not only used for white women.

But god forbid white women be offended. We must diligently and urgently write an algorithm to remove this horrendous word.

This entire post and asking for an actual algorithm to automatically remove the word is exactly Karen behaviour. We really are our own worst enemy sometimes.

So true.

It could also easily slip into cancel culture. Eliminating what we do not approve of.

Where do you draw the line anyway? DH is a parkour instructor in his free time and yesterday he showed me a video about a " K...N" calling the police on people practicing parkour. If I wanted to start a thread and discuss it in the exercise section, would I be censured, would my discussion be deleted?

Who would define the nuance in the use of Karen. It would end up with cancellation for sections dedicated to the baby name, the book authors , the beauty products, politician, actors, ..... all genuine use of Karen.

@BIWI Not only is requesting a Karen ban a wrong idea, it is a bad idea as well. Unenforceable. Keep reporting its use and move on.

@MarshmallowSwede

If you’re not acting entitled then you won’t be called a Karen. It’s a word for an entitled, privileged woman. And I’ve seen women of colour be called Karen. So it’s not only used for white women.

But god forbid white women be offended. We must diligently and urgently write an algorithm to remove this horrendous word.

This entire post and asking for an actual algorithm to automatically remove the word is exactly Karen behaviour. We really are our own worst enemy sometimes.

You're bang on with this. As an aside, if MN ban Karen I assume they'll be banning the phrase "having a Paddy" too? You know, what with it being rooted in anti-Irishness and all. Be careful if you go down this road MN, there madness lies.

Well I agree with you OP. It's such a shitty anti feminist way to silence a woman, whether she's right or she's wrong, it shuts her down. So any woman using that to silence another woman, slow clap. And if Entitled Behavior is a big problem, look at men's entitled behavior first

YY, absolutely! I LOATHE the term.

@peachgreen 'It's very telling that there are calls to remove the word "Karen" - a term that is usually applied to straight white cis women, ie the MN majority - but not the homophobic, racist and transphobic slurs used here on a regular basis. Thankfully, MNHQ remove those when reported. Not sure why "Karen" deserves special treatment.*

I think you mean 'straight white women'. We don't need the 'cis' part thanks, perfectly able to identify ourselves without it FFS. If you don't want to include transwomen in that statement, feel free to leave them out but 'cis' is the equivalent of saying 'women who are not transwomen' - the term is WOMEN. Why can't we just be called women rather than having to be separated from biologically male persons who now define themselves as female - more power to them, I have no issue with that whatsoever and support their need to have a defined, safe place in society- but I do have an issue as needing to now define myself as someone in comparison to someone else.

Cis seems to me to be implying that now, if I'm asked what gender I am, I need to say 'I'm a woman who was born biologically female and remains that way because saying I'm a woman doesn't cover the possibility that I might be a trans woman?' How does this make sense? Why is a transwoman the one who gets to appropriate the word woman rather than each retaining our own word - transwoman, woman? Honestly this mystifies me.

Anyway that was a huge tangent. OP I don't think the algorithm Idea is sound but I 100% agree that a 'Karen' is a nasty, woman hating and belittling term. I hate it and won't ever use it and was surprised to hear my extremely woke teen dd using it the other, so casual and insidious is its nature, she didn't even realise its implications. Gah.

I've looked back on AS at all threads containing 'Karen' since the start of 2019.

If auto-deleted, as well knocking out insulting uses, it would also take out:

S&B threads: Karen Millen, Donna Karen (sic), Karen Walker
Actors and singers: Karen Gillan, Karen Carpenter and more
All discussion of the term 'Karen' (eg in Feminism chat following the Guardian article)
Many baby name threads - yes still appearing as a suggestion (probably less likely now) but many of the 'guess the generation by my classmates' names). Also pet name threads
Telly addicts threads: actors and characters - (classic) Corrie, Cold Feet, Outnumbered, Celebrity Masterchef, Doctors, Eastenders, Shameless, Neighbours, Strictly, Will and Grace
Sports people eg Wimbledon threads
Numerous 'what we're reading' threads

That's a lot of collateral damage!

That's a lot of collateral damage!

True, otherwise the collateral damage is only outspoken women who no one cares about anyway.

@severelysound

Typical mumsnet thinking karen is the worst thing you can call someone, not the racist insults that Karen's use.

This.

And also... really? If we're doing Karen surely we also need to automatically censor Snowflake, any references to millennials, woke, cis, terf, cocklodger, feckless, manchild, trump and his orangeness, boris and his hair, biden and his dementia, nicola and her jimmy kranky, Chad (which would mean losing CHAD HOGAN WOOO SPRING BREAK), Dan, Ken, Becky, Stacey, Bye Felicia, Sure Jan, the office Sandra, and we should probably sweep up the covidiots and their arch-enemies the dementors, and anything related to tinfoil.

Any form of fat shaming and slim shaming.

Hairy hands? And that "a man has arrived" meme. Or someone typing the words. Even though I love the principle of it... fair is fair surely? Either stereotypes and mild insults are fine or they're not?

Either we have a moderation policy where a human decides if something is crossing the line, or we start blanket banning words? Is that really what people want .

Or is it just Karen, specifically? Because....? Why exactly? What makes Karen so special? (Pun fully intended).

I don't really get the argument to be honest.

Everyone knows what it's referring to and everyone knows that your name being Karen Chad Becky Jan Stacey Felicia Dan Sebastian Tarquin MacKenzeee etc does not mean you are the living embodiment of the stereotype. And stereotypes are rife on this site - how often do people say stuff about "Chelsea Tractors" or "athleisure wear" or MILs or NIMBYS or the in crowd on the school run or the performance parents etc. Or are those okay because they definitely don't apply to you whereas maybe the Karen stereotype might?

It's also kinda ironic / amusing that on a thread demanding to censor the word Karen, there are replies like "something needs to be done".

If it's the fact that a person's name is being used that is the issue, we could just replace Karens with 'something needs to be doners'.

Was coming here to say this. Have other slurs used on Mumsnet been blocked in the same way or is it just Karen that seems to be getting this privilege...🤔🤔

I've seen worse on here but they never seem to get such a reaction.
Hmmmmmm!

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

That's a lot of collateral damage!

True, otherwise the collateral damage is only outspoken women who no one cares about anyway.

With no auto delete, there is no collateral damage.

Unacceptable comments can still be reported for deletion.

With no auto delete, there is no deletion of perfectly proper use of the word.

Of course.

I don’t think it should be auto deleted, but I find the arguments against it questionable.

I also feel that people who use this term forget how bad and horrid it would feel if their names were used in this way. I can't imagine my name being a term used to describe an unappealing character trait/personality

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Of course.

I don’t think it should be auto deleted, but I find the arguments against it questionable.

What's questionable about thinking Karen shouldn't be treated as though it's worse than racial slurs, or wondering how anyone is supposed to talk about anyone named Karen?

I find the collateral damage remarks off.

Have I ever mentioned racial slurs? I don’t think I have.