Request to remove the word 'debate' from ' Feminism: Sex & gender debate'

[Thelnebriati]

Can you please remove the word 'debate'? It doesn't add anything.

Especially if the trans widows threads are to remain on the board.

Guessing it's the latter, then.

Hi all, as Justine said the other week we wanted to create 2 boards in feminism - one which housed trans/women's rights related discussions and one that largely didn't.

As previously said, many users have asked for the split so they can contribute to feminism discussions but avoid this particular issue, which they find difficult. We think the word debate (as opposed to chat) is a good signifier of that.

As we've said, we're not going to be scorched earth about moving threads around - of course things will veer off topic and of course it's fine for the Transwidows threads to stay in the sex and gender topic. It's more about the general impression that there's a board to to discuss women's v trans rights and a board to discuss other feminist issues.

So @MichaelMumsnet why not use the word 'discuss'ion as you just did in your final sentence, or not have a word at all? We don't have 'chat' or 'debate' in other topics such as Adoption or Education, so I don't really see why you need to lengthen the board name at all, but especially with a word that the main users of that board aren't all that keen on?

@MichaelMumsnet right, but you haven't addressed the point of this thread, which specifically relates to the word 'debate'. What's the MNHQ response on this point?

@MichaelMumsnet you really are missing the point, sorry. This thread is asking for the word debate to be removed from the board name - discussion would be far better. Or just call it Sex and Gender Identity.

@MichaelMumsnet you might think "debate" is a good signifier, but the users of the board don't, particularly because of the upset it's causing to the transwidows. "Sex and gender discussion" would be more neutral, or as others have said "sex and gender identity", to clarify that gender identity rather than gender as a social phenomenon is what is being discussed. The transwidows aren't arguing that the sex and gender topic is the wrong place for them, they are saying a support thread should not be on a board labelled "debate", so it makes far more sense to make a slight tweak to the board name rather than having to move the thread somewhere else.

I really cannot understand why you're digging your heels in about a labelling change here.

I agree.
I am also getting really annoyed that gender issues cannot be discussed on other boards, eg aibu, surely this is a crossover issue that also has an impact on parenting, teaching, schools and education, activities for children like Girl Guides, friendship issues between teens and also adult friendships, etc etc.
Yet any discussion seems to be getting moved here, why ?

@MichaelMumsnet I agree you are missing the point (and haven't read this thread - please read it). I haven't voted yet but agree - call it Sex and Gender Identity. A much better name

…and of course it's fine for the Transwidows threads to stay in the sex and gender topic

But the point is @MichaelMumsnet those posters don’t want it to be in a topic labelled “debate”. It might be fine for you, but it isn’t for them, and it would be insensitive not to see that. The thread is about support and validating their feelings and experiences; it would be good if MNHQ could mirror that.

I’ve had a previous thread from years ago under a different name put in this topic and that wasn’t a debate either. If I was starting that thread now, I’m not sure I’d want it in sex and gender debate, in the same reason I deliberately wouldn’t have starred it in AIBU. (And there’s an irony here in not, as SirVix said, being able to start threads on this topic in AIBU without them being removed.)

I agree with the OP and subsequent PPs that the name of this board should be changed to Feminism: Sex and Gender Identity.

It's more about the general impression that there's a board to to discuss women's v trans rights and a board to discuss other feminist issues.

If you call it discussion, why not name it discussion.

Just to endorse what PP's have said about the trans widows threads @MichaelMumsnet and to ask you to read the thread because you have missed the point.

This is brilliant - man sweeps in, doesn't read the thread, seemingly doesn't even read the TITLE to the thread (which neatly sums up the issue in question), tells all the women that it's fine and they need to be quiet now, then leaves without ever addressing the central point being discussed. And people wonder why we're angry?

It costs you nothing to rename it discussion. Discussion is hardly an extreme word.

We think the word debate (as opposed to chat) is a good signifier of that.

It's more about the general impression that there's a board to to discuss women's v trans rights and a board to discuss other feminist issues.

Are we discussing or debating?

We are constantly told that gender identity issues (usually where they intersect with the problematic phrase “rights”) are Not Up For Debate by trans people and their allies. They are VERY vocal on the No Debate point.

Naming this particular MN board “debate” seems counterproductive (if you’re being generous) or perhaps cynical (if you’re feeling weary and suspicious.)

Please just make both boards lose the added extra ‘chat’ or ‘debate’.

Find a better description.

to discuss women's v trans rights

And just to reiterate- framing things like this, even just in passing, is not great.

Posters have been clearer than clear over and over - it’s not Us vs Them. It’s not about Women vs Trans (despite the huge push to label women speaking about this in this way). It’s about the tricky intersection of overlapping issues and how we discuss it.

Don’t unthinkingly perpetuate Us vs Them. Please.

and of course it's fine for the Transwidows threads to stay in the sex and gender topic.

I'm a bit baffled by this bit. The posts I've seen from Transwidows have been quite clear that they don't feel that their discussions being on a board called sex and gender debate is appropriate. Given several recent threads which were started as a deliberate attack on them as a group, I would tend to agree with their opinion.

Was the bit I've quoted a typing error or has there been a misunderstanding?

@MichaelMumsnet the trans widows weren't asking for permission to remain in the "sex and gender topic", they wanted to know if you could remove the contentious "debate" word as it isn't conducive to a supportive atmosphere for them.

That's one of the worst responses I've seen from Mumsnet. It doesn't answer the points we raised; and as far as the comments about the Trans Widow threads go, you aren't doing us a favour or giving us anything we've asked for.

I find the inclusion of the word 'debate' to be goady. Feminists dared to say 'yes a debate' in response to the TRA's insistence that trans 'rights' are not up for debate. Well that taught us, didn't it.

None of the other boards use the word 'debate' or 'discussion' because thats what they are, by default.

@Thelnebriati

That's one of the worst responses I've seen from Mumsnet. It doesn't answer the points we raised; and as far as the comments about the Trans Widow threads go, you aren't doing us a favour or giving us anything we've asked for.

I find the inclusion of the word 'debate' to be goady. Feminists dared to say 'yes a debate' in response to the TRA's insistence that trans 'rights' are not up for debate. Well that taught us, didn't it.

None of the other boards use the word 'debate' or 'discussion' because thats what they are, by default.

Well said.

@MichaelMumsnet please read the title, then the thread, and try again.

MNHQ did offer to move trans widows to Relationships but I feel that would be a worse option as we'd have to spend a lot of time justifying ourselves and fielding "it's just clothes" comments.

totally agree - the word "debate", when it is not present in any other forum title, invites people to take issue with what is being said. This is really not fair to any of us who might want a discussion, not a debate (yes they are very different things) about the issues - or just support.

You are painting a target on our backs and inviting people to take aim.

Words matter, the meaning of words matters. Debate is the wrong word.

Just adding my voice too.

Debate means A vs B. That’s what happens in a debate. Two sides each trying to convince the other.

We don’t want this to be us vs them. We want to talk about implications, nuances, discuss, share experiences.”Debate” makes it seem like we’re looking for an argument - a sort of “trans AIBU”. That is so much not the point. We want to listen as discuss. Debate is totally the wrong word for this topic. Please change it or remove it!

Hang on, nothing @ProudExclu said was rude or offensive - she was talking about her own experiences. I take it the misogynistic monitors objected to the factual use of AGP?