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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

372 replies

rockingchaircandle · 07/06/2020 09:45

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

OP posts:
Cheetoz · 08/06/2020 10:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TimeLady · 08/06/2020 10:00

Is that aimed at me, OP? I was simply responding to posts upthread.

ChocolatelyAsFuck · 08/06/2020 10:03

No one is stopping me. I simply choose not to because I don’t want to give ammunition to bad faith posters with an agenda to derail any discussion about racism and how to tackle it.

rockingchaircandle · 08/06/2020 10:05

@Cheetoz

Stop making empty allegations.

  • Give me an example of where I have claimed to speak for woc.
  • Give me an example of where I've bullied.

You can't. So stop it.

OP posts:
TimeLady · 08/06/2020 10:11

“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.”

R Burns.c 1785

Cheetoz · 08/06/2020 10:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SetPhasersTaeMalkie · 08/06/2020 10:15

@TimeLady

“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us To see oursels as others see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us, An' foolish notion.”

R Burns.c 1785

I often think of that quote when I read the comments on the numerous H & M threads. What they look like from a different perspective. It's not pleasant viewing.
rockingchaircandle · 08/06/2020 10:18

Here we go again. Some people see me as a bully for disagreeing with some people's opinions on Meghan. Others see the tactics of the persistent anti-Meghan posters, the flouncing etc, the dismissal of racism, the cliquey tactics as bullying.

Not what this thread is about though. Last time the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable it seems some posters are keen to make that happen again.

OP posts:
TheSan · 08/06/2020 10:23

I can’t believe that a WOC would have a problem with a thread & posts calling out racism. The same WOC doesn’t say much about the examples upthread which show the vile racist things thrown at MM other posters instead they are now accusing a white poster who is an ally in calling out racism for chasing woman of colour out. Make this make sense🤦🏾‍♀️.

I guess it does show we are different after all. But the OP and others are not piggybacking on BLM, because posters have been calling out this type of racism and bullying way before George Floyd was murdered. After all Black Lives Matter all the time.

Cheetoz · 08/06/2020 10:25

You don’t enjoy being labelled something you believe to be untrue?

How about I pop up on every thread to throw that label at you? Even when you’re posting nothing of the sort and just want some headspace to be filled with celebrity gossip. Don’t you think that would get tiresome?

You had no problem doing it to others. Piggybacking on BLM in order to make your imaginary point.

This is the royal family section. WHERE is the royal family chat in this thread?

rockingchaircandle · 08/06/2020 10:29

How about I pop up on every thread to throw that label at you?

Empty allegations.

The thread is here because it is asking @MNHQ to do something about the racism they have acknowledged is a problem in Meghan threads.

But you know that.

OP posts:
Roussette · 08/06/2020 10:29

Everyone watching this thread has seen your behaviour playing out repeatedly over the numerous threads so quit the innocent act

Well, you don't speak for me and I totally disagree with you.

LaundryBasketOfHell · 08/06/2020 10:40

^
I can’t believe that a WOC would have a problem with a thread & posts calling out racism. The same WOC doesn’t say much about the examples upthread which show the vile racist things thrown at MM other posters instead they are now accusing a white poster who is an ally in calling out racism for chasing woman of colour out. Make this make sense🤦🏾‍♀️. ^

WTAF?

LaundryBasketOfHell · 08/06/2020 10:42

And I’ll try that again, because WTAF?

I can’t believe that a WOC would have a problem with a thread & posts calling out racism. The same WOC doesn’t say much about the examples upthread which show the vile racist things thrown at MM other posters instead they are now accusing a white poster who is an ally in calling out racism for chasing woman of colour out. Make this make sense

Cheetoz · 08/06/2020 10:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Tsukukuviri · 08/06/2020 11:12

@Cheetoz

You are being ridiculous. Setting up a straw man. According to you @MNHQ should allow MM to be racially abused because to stop any such racist discussion would be racist because she is a woman of colour.

Ridiculous.

@rockingchaircandle is right. You and others are posting in extremely bad faith to have the thread deleted so that you can go back to your Meghan bitching undisturbed.

You know what, knock yourselves out. But I would really like to hear from @MNHQ on the issues we have raised that keep getting swept under the carpet. I really want to know if Mumsnet is happy to be the repository of venomous, and sometimes racist posts.

And I for one am not riding on BLM. I first alerted Mumsnet to the issues even before the wedding. This has been a constant issue, but has ramped up since they stepped down as working royals. That was the pretext to really unleash the poison.

Samcro · 08/06/2020 11:24

I am confused now.
are we not allowed to talk about MM now. even if we are positive about her.
can people not discuss news?

don't get me wrong. the bashing should stop, but just discussing in "nice" terms??

rockingchaircandle · 08/06/2020 11:26

@Cheetoz

I'm not sure what point you are making here.

For the record, and I've said this before, but I am not particularly a Meghan fan. When I saw the threads, sometime in January I think, I was surprised at how much some people disliked her. When I joined in with the discussion it was to challenge the 'anti-
Meghan' views as they often seemed overblown and unfounded to me. That got the regular posters backs up and it turned into a saga where we were labelled scolds, there were personal attacks that were deleted, yet people carried on in the same threads. Some of the people leading that are now banned. To be clear, I'm not saying any of these people were being racist. I'm saying I contributed to threads, I did not bully anyone, and many regular posters didn't like disagreement. It's their right to dislike it, but it is my right to, for example, disagree with a Blind Gossip article.

On preivous threads, I did try apologising at one point. Behaviour deteriorated on all sides and I think I could have expressed myself better at times. This was true of others, but I was taking responsibility for my behaviour. I said I think I've let my actions get dragged down, and for a while there was a bit more harmony. But this tended to be when things like the Royal Palace gift shop were being discussed. When the thread turned back to Meghan, disagreements arose, and it was back to the 'scolds' and 'derailing' tactics by some posters. This is not discussing in good faith.

When there was overt racism, it was called out and deleted. The point of this thread is that it keeps happening and we would like to see MNHQ proactively address it. Back in February, they acknowledged there was racism and there was an improvement. I left then because I did find it hard. I didn't flounce or shout about bullying, but disagreeing with people on the internet isn't great for your health.

I've only been back a few days, yet people are now making wild claims about me following people, bullying them, claiming everybody is a racist, claiming I'm silencing people etc with zero evidence.

If you keep making these claims without evidence, this is just personal attacks.

The point of the thread is in the OP. If you want to start a @rockingchaircandle is a racist bully thread, go and do that, prove your point there, but don't derail this thread.

OP posts:
CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate · 08/06/2020 11:29

It's not bullying, as @CatherineOfAragonsPomegranate claims either.

Please stop the gaslighting. You most definitely have bullied posters. The evidence was in my inbox. I had people really upset after being called racists asking me what did they say that was wrong? And more besides.

I am also the evidence, as I often left the thread as if I entered the 'race' debate you would keep stoking up, it would have resulted in the anticipated 'bunfight' and the thread being pulled and that wasn't fair to the hundreds of others enjoying the threads. I said this to others. The evidence is in their inboxes.

The open evidence was also in posts pleading for posters to just ignore you or the thread would get pulled. You. One poster. The threat of answering your goading posts hanging above each thread. There are loads of examples of such posts. Note: there were other dissenting voices but because their intentions were to debate it was not a threat to the thread.

You would wait till the thread had been built up then insert some fake objection then cause an argument resulting in threads being pulled.

MNHQ frankly treated regular posters and long term contributors and supporters of MN with contempt by treating them like children, pulling loads of threads and allowing the same people to derail them again and again and again. Despite the tactics being obvious.

You created an atmosphere where WOC no longer felt they could talk about MM or reveal themselves to be WOC. You shouted over them.

You took it upon yourself to determine for WOC what their terms of reference for racism were and by doing so you absolutely took away their right to discriminate for themselves.

For your information, women of colour come from every culture and have a hugely diverse range of experiences. The term 'Black' or WOC can be useful, but it can be also be used to wash that discrimination away and in my personal opinion this does not happen to any other group of women. Who are you to tell me what I should find racist or not? Or I should engage with or not? Who I can criticise or not?

WOC are intelligent with different opinions. Different experiences and vastly differening cultures. We each personally decide the level to which we identify with predominantly white institutions and or areas of civic life such as the RF, or situations like Brexit. It is highly personal.

There is no one size fits all perspective on any matter even when it seems that way. Even in what is going now with the BLM protests, there are differences of opinion. Levels of engagement that vary. Discrimination and departure over certain points. Some people are good at shouting loudly and preventing the voices of others being heard, so as to give the appearance of monolithic thought.

I abhor this blanketing of personal identity and frankly you do not get it. But you keep pushing forward regardless. So just carry on.

Frankly it is MNHQ mods I find disappointing. Free speech is gone on the site even the feminists have to pussy foot around so as to avoid the dreaded thread pulling over some obvious attempt to create just that end.

Roussette · 08/06/2020 11:29

Discussing in 'nice' terms doesn't happen does it though?

6 months before they married (so we're talking two and a half years ago), there was a thread titled 'I'm fucking sick of Meghan Markle already'. So, yes, it did all start before they even got hitched.

The engine that drives the MM threads is dislike and contempt of her. Apart from our 4 'happy threads' the rest descends into negativity, even if it didn't start out like that.

Tippexy · 08/06/2020 11:34

The problem is that you can’t comment on a thread here about why you’re not a fan of Meghan, without someone popping up and calling you a racist. That’s what needs to change.

TimeLady · 08/06/2020 11:42

I've been over to the Lipstick Alley Unpopular Opinions thread about MM and I would advise MN mods to do the same as part of their review.

Lipstick Alley calls itself The Internet's largest African American Forum. News, Sports, Celebrity Gossip, Fashion and Hair Care from an African American perspective.

www.facebook.com/pg/Lipstick-Alley-110476719055654/about/?ref=page_internal

and so I would expect issues of racism to be moderated pretty stringently there.

But guess what...the same issues we're getting pulled up about by some posters as 'racist' on MN are discussed in a very similar manner over there.

For the record, the current 'Meghan Markle unpopular opinions thread Pt 2' is on p 4165, with 124,927 posts and 6,096,764 views.

So it seems it's not just a few spiteful witches on MN who are interested in how the M&H saga plays out.

TimeLady · 08/06/2020 11:48

CatherineofAragonsPomegranate

There was a Spectator article about progressive censorship just this week

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-march-of-progressive-censorship

and you're right, it happens all the time on the FWR board with accusations of 'transphobia' to shut down debate.

Cheetoz · 08/06/2020 12:05

RockingchaircandIe

STOP THESE THREADS!!!!!!!!

The FIRST post on a thread titled ‘Harry and Meghan News’.

So how does this fit with your narrative?

Cheetoz · 08/06/2020 12:07

Calling a thread ‘Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny’ and @MNHQ on every post you write but sticking it in the royal family section seems counterintuitive.

Especially as threads appearing on the wrong boards has a been a particular bugbear for you in the past.

You should move it.

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