Effective measures against threads that encourage racism and misogyny

[rockingchaircandle]

I posted yesterday about the series of threads on Meghan Markle. In emails MN have acknowledged that they struggle with the subtle and not-so-subtle racism these threads bring.

The post led to discussions where many women, especially women of colour, explained how these threads made them feel.

Posters who have formed a clique around anti-Meghan threads, used another thread to organised the spamming of the thread to derail it. MN have also said they are going to take a longer, overall look at the posters who we feel are not here with good intentions. However the entire thread was deleted, as the posters intended and the debate was shut down, and those voices lost.

Unfortunately the thread degenerated to the point it was no longer salvageable, and so we had no option but to delete it. We want to allow free discussion as much as possible, especially on such an important topic as anti-racism, but sometimes when we have to make lots of deletions, threads end up with so many holes that it makes no sense to keep them up. We hope you understand where we're coming from. The derailing posts were obvious - they were either personal attacks or reference to TV shows etc. They could have deleted them. There are now another 2 threads up about Meghan Markle.

So, I know this will probably get deleted, but to the people who posted yesterday I just wanted a message to show that not everyone agrees with this. I'm sorry, MN have heard - I hope they will do something more effective if they truly think anti-racism is an important topic.

Thank you, Justine.

@Cheetoz

So to be clear:

• Will you be taking this approach to all other threads about celebrities that ‘attack’ or ‘speculate in an unpleasant way’?

• If anyone suspects a post about Meghan Markle has a racist undertone they should report it, not attack the poster and derail the thread?

Anyone who thinks a post on Mumsnet has a racist undertone should both report it (please) and, if they want to, post on the thread to explain why they find it problematic. We don't see this as derailing and as we said above, 'We think calling people derailers or handmaidens, or calling ‘grey rock’ when someone posts, with the intent of driving them away from a discussion, is not on.' Mumsnet works best when users talk to each other in good faith to explore differences of opinion.

This is CENSORSHIP

Wow

Thank you @JustineMumsnet
That's a really clear response, thank you so much.

Thank you Mumsnet for responding.

Bet rocking horse candle and her ilk are thrilled to have their way. The Royal Forum will become boring.

I find that response surprisingly reasonable. My summary:

• racism is not acceptable; it's often clear but but not always so we'll look at reports carefully
• criticism and Meghan-related threads allowed but kept streamlined, and excessive or unpleasant posting about the critical stuff not allowed
• the most bizarre and stupid rumours not welcome but mainstream reporting acceptable
• report posts you consider racist and explain your view on the thread if you wish
• don't tell people to stop posting on a thread

I think there's something there for all posters on royal threads to work with.

One point of particular interest, and one I'd like to add:
"We will also be minded to delete bottom-feeding internet rumours (although not, to be clear, posts about stories that have appeared in mainstream outlets)" - let's hope this stops the repeated response that something must be a lie / is clearly unacceptable as a source because it's from the Daily Mail. I'm not even a fan of the
Mail but it can't be denied that it's a mainstream outlet. I will be interested to see how the 'other' outlets are defined but that's to come!

Second point: Justine asked people to discuss with each other in good faith and to explain problems they have with posts. I am happy to do that and hope that others will do likewise instead of metaphorically shouting at other posters that they are hideous bullies / racists / censors, worse than Hitler etc.

Absolutely. Quite happy to discuss with anyone any post I think is a problem, whatever that problem is.

@Maudiejames

Bet rocking horse candle and her ilk are thrilled to have their way. The Royal Forum will become boring.

Why will it be boring? Surely people will still post and discuss, just not countless threads and racism. Can't see a problem.

Yes, Buttery, it is helpful.

I confess that I have felt unable to post for fear of being accused of being something that I’m not. I’m one of the lurkers referred to earlier. So I hope things improve now going forward and we can all enjoy the forum again.

Thank you @JustineMumsnet for what seems a sensible and measured response. Let's hope peace and love can break out across the boards. to all

Now Justine of Mumsnet is calling me racist because I feel less than positive about Meghan and Harry? Oh because Meghan happens to be black?

This. It’s a shame MN have been bullied into this approach.

So now MN are being bullied???

Just because they have made a decision you don't agree with, doesn't mean they've been bullied.

We do believe in the benefits of diversity of opinion and debate as lots of you will know, and that does mean tolerating other people’s points of view even if you disagree with them. We think calling people derailers or handmaidens, or calling ‘grey rock’ when someone posts, with the intent of driving them away from a discussion, is not on and we will take firmer action on this from now on. Can we ask you to help on this please by reporting these posts when you see them?

I did report. It was left to stand.

And I’m tired of one poster saying the same thing over and over about white people. And that stands.

And I’m not white. I find it shameful - not a differing opinion.

A post black against white is equally abhorrent as white against black.

And I was silenced. I was grey rocked. So was at least one other poster.

But that stands.

If I’m not to be heard then that is fine. But there needs to be a level playing field.

I was not hateful and yet hateful speech was allowed to stand.

I’m disappointed and heavy hearted.

But not so surprised.

Thank you for your post.

I posted once in good faith on yesterday's thread. I was disappointed but not surprised to go back to it today and find the thread deletion message from MNHQ because it had been derailed. Having read Justine's post, I hope that from now on threads like yesterday's and this one will have obviously derailing posts deleted and the threads allowed to stand - either to continue or locked. The time has come for all decent people, businesses and organisations to stand up against the peddlers of covert and overt racism and misogyny, not forgetting disablism and homophobia, and spurious, bullying gossip, whether in real life or online.

Hello everyone - we're just moving this over to Site Stuff.

Thank you @rockingchaircandle for pushing mumsnet to standing by their proclaimed standards on racism.

The posts and posters are a summary of the issues poc face in the UK. Where it's being called out for racism is a bigger problem than actual racist behaviour.

Whilst I think that the clarity is a positive step, I do agree that rocking could help things further by apologising to the posters she’s driven into hiding (I am one) or off the site entirely with her, perhaps, well intentioned but aggressive posting.

Thanks MNHQ . Great response

Thank you SO much @MMHQ for restoring my faith in Mumsnet and for listening.

Hi @Froq

If @rockingchaircandle is to apologize then so should you. I found a series of of your patronizing and dismissive posts so offensive that I left the forum for three weeks.

But see, I think that’s for me to deal with. Rocking has been consistent and has finally got Mumsnet to act. She has nothing to apologize for.

Yes thank you MNHQ.

If anyone should apologise it’s the poster who starting throwing N-bombs around. None of the posters playing the bullying card objected to that.

Thank you @rockingchaircandle for being persistent and not letting this go.

It will go a long way to making POC feel more comfortable on the site if we know there is a zero tolerance policy for this kind of stuff.

Thank you @JustineMumsnet for responding. I was really put of mumsnet last year when a serious topic based on race was deleted and dismissed as a "bunfight" because of numerous reported posts that were truly despicable. However those could have been deleted as the conversation was very thoughtful and insightful with many posters saying they had not thought of things from that perspective, so from a standpoint of meaningful and open conversations about races it was definitely a valuable thread, that was unfortunately lost.

Thank you for your response though

@Tsukukuviri I’m sure rocking can speak for herself.